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Post by carolinedorman on Sept 26, 2013 2:09:43 GMT
Don’t we all just secretly yearn to return to the days of simplicity when eating, sleeping, and going to the bathroom was as complicated as it got? When everyone around us was concerned with ensuring our happiness and wellbeing? Unfortunately, however, we lose that “cute factor” and must be in charge of fulfilling our own needs. As humans grow older, it is up to each individual to ensure his/her own happiness, and not the job of everyone else. In the case of Luke Parris Page, he is fortunate enough that those around him make it their priority to fulfill his hunger, sleepiness, etc. Eventually he too will have to fend for himself and find his own happiness. Every living human being, no matter the age, has a self; the issue is cultivation. How does one cultivate his/her self to achieve happiness? This is ultimately the question Siddhartha struggles with throughout the novel, and only he is able to answer it for himself.
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Post by Lacey Doby on Sept 26, 2013 2:23:57 GMT
I agree with Jessica Lee, who says that no one could have found themselves because "Self is a perpetually changing process." Since I figured it out, I have been fascinated by the fact that the human body pretty much destroys and recreates itself every couple of years or so. The person that you were freshman year has been completely replaced by the person you are now, both physically and mentally, since memories are also altered based on time. By this standard, your "self," or who you are, is literally changing with every second, so there is no way of pinning down a moment when you find your "self." Little Luke, though he has special idiosyncratic tendencies and an individual baby-like personality, has not reached a point in his life, nor has anyone, where he can know exactly who he is.
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Post by anaritter on Sept 26, 2013 2:24:52 GMT
Most people who answered in the negative claimed that to have a self, one must have self-awareness, which an infant of three days doesn't have. Sure, Luke hasn't fully pondered his identity and place in the world using a wealth of personal life experiences and memories, but he is still aware of himself as a living being. Haven't you seen babies grab their feet and squirm around with their weird baby flexibility? Even if it's the only thing he's aware of, he's definitely aware of his own body. So by that definition, doesn't he have a self? He does, even if all he knows of his own self is little fingers and toes.
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alice
New Member
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Post by alice on Sept 26, 2013 2:33:06 GMT
Im feeling what PJ said super hard and I would like say that I think that Lil' Luke has a self. I think it's impossible not to. When I first read this prompt I thought a lot about learning in psychology that everything you are is based off of your memories. Everything in your self is based off of what your self encountered in previous events. Now, because Lil' Luke does not have much to remember nor much possibility for memory, his self is not as grand and recognizable as maybe someone like Siddhartha but this does not mean it is totally absent. Like Morgan and Sheridan discusses, babies can have drastically different personalities even at the same age. I don't think that this is because they have had different experiences (other than what kind of tricked out stroller they have or whether or not their parents buy the good snacks or baby food or whatever) but rather because they react differently to things that are presented to them. Joel brought up the distinction between the self and the soul and I think that the soul is your being, your life force that can be given different perspectives by putting yourself in the corpse of a jackal per say. The self, however is who you are and how you really TRULY HONESTLY react to or feel about something. It is the voice that you have to strain to listen to when your soul is filled with misleading words and unstable thoughts. Babies, unclouded by the pains of respect, lies, and the real world go for what their inner voice tells them to do. Their personalities represent themselves so soon because their inner voice is an unchained wanderer and must first explore before settling.
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Post by austinellerbruch on Sept 26, 2013 2:53:02 GMT
I am going to freestyle it up by saying that Luke does indeed have a self, yet he also does not. Upon the inception of his existence, Luke has already experienced enough to influence his behavior, and someday he will form his own personality as he is mentally competent enough to contemplate these experiences. Although Luke is a unique being with his own personality, he can never have a definite "self" that defines him. Contrary to what Daniel Hong said during our previous English class, I think that the human "self" is vulnerable to change from experience. Consider Siddhartha, he spent the early years of his life as a disciple of Brahman, but then upon meeting the Samanas, decides to lead a new path with them, similarly with the meeting of Kamala and Kamaswami and his lust for flesh and materialism. There is no "self" that defines us, rather, it is what we experience which shapes who we are at a certain moment. SO yes, Luke does has a self, he is his own person with his own place in the world, however his personage is (I believe) not defined by some predetermined entity but by the experiences that will shape his life.
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Post by rubyking on Sept 26, 2013 2:57:47 GMT
Mais oui, il a une identité! I really liked what Jessica said, even though she fell to disagreance. I do agree that whatever "self" is in constant fluxuation, but who says it's not in that constant waltz at 3 days old? I'd like to think there are moments or phases in life that allow us to "restart" life. If we fall in love, we can have this new sense of self as a three day old person. If we discover the most flawless baguette known to man, we have a new sense of self as a three day old person.
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Post by hannahlewman on Sept 26, 2013 3:04:07 GMT
First off, I would like to say that Hollywood has already answered this for us. If babies didn't have selves, "Superbabies: Baby Geniuses 2" wouldn't be able to exist as one of the greatest works in modern cinema. Exhibit A: www.imdb.com/title/tt0270846/To ground this theory that humans do in fact have an innate "self," it might be a little more convincing for me to use credible evidence, not to demean the film in which "toddlers must race against time for the sake of babies everywhere." The self is within one from the beginning, but it may take an entire lifetime to discover the nature of that self, and the nature of oneself may not be discovered at all. If Siddhartha thought his self was something he needed to build, his life would have had a much stronger emphasis on developing that self and making a better version of himself. Instead his journey focuses on finding himself and discovering the nature of his inner being, which implies that this sense of self has always been there. After all, you really only go looking for something once you think it exists. And since "Siddhartha" starts at the beginning of Siddhartha's journey to find himself, which is early in his life, it can be reasonably inferred that this "self" existed from the beginning, or else Hesse would have shown the development of the self which occurred in early years. I would offer some personal anecdote about when my sense of self developed, but I was a Superbaby: Baby Genius so I think my personal bias would skew any insight I could offer. -Lewman
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Post by allegra on Sept 26, 2013 3:13:17 GMT
All people, in my opinion, are born with a self. This self is unique for each person. However, you may ask, what is a self? How do we define a "self?" People's selfes are who they have the power to become that will bring themselves the most happiness (maybe that's why people take selfies, because people are attempting to form their self through the opinions of others). People go through struggles as they attempt to define their self to, well, themselves. For example, Siddhartha says:
"His self had crawled into this priesthood, into this arrogance, into this intellectuality. It sat there tightly and grew, while he thought he was destroying it by fasting and penitence. Now he understood it and realized that the inward voice had been right, that no teacher could have brought him salvation. That was why he had to go into the world, to lose himself in power, women, and money; that was why he had to be a merchant, a dice player, a drinker and a man of property, until the priest and Samana in him were dead." (99-100)
Siddhartha went through many struggles in an attempt to figure his self out; to define his self. He even says he is reborn. This tells us that the self can be found through rebirth or birth; Siddhartha has to re-define his self now. He has always had a self, but it is the journey of life that causes a person to attempt to define their own self. Maybe it can never happen. On a side note, I think the Buddha figured this out and that is the reason he is so happy. I am only hypothesizing, I know nothing of Buddhism and I apologize if I have hurt anyone's beliefs.
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Post by rileyhatfield on Sept 26, 2013 3:24:06 GMT
First off... your nephew is SO CUTE. Secondly, I firmly believe that he does have a "self." My sister-in-law recently had a daughter which means I now am an Aunt. I'm not around too many babies so if my niece had not been born, I think I would have answered this question differently. I probably would have said, "No, babies don't have the mental capability to think and have their own complex thoughts at that age and they have too much of a need for other people to help them survive. Therefore, your nephew won't develop his 'self' until later on in life." However, I interact with Maddie (my niece) quite a lot and I'm seeing her grow up before my eyes. In fact, I can literally see her "self" forming right in front of me. Sure, Maddie's self, just as your nephew's self, isn't fully formed. There's still a lot of developing to do, but the essence of who Maddie and your nephew are was set in stone when they were being formed in the womb. That being said, I believe that external factors can mold and shift their "selves" to certain extremes. For example, a child could grow up as a shy and reserved kid. On their very first day of school, another kid bullies them for the next few years. The bullying could push their shyness into extreme measures because they believe that everyone will bully them if them get in anyone's way. Even Siddhartha simply states that babies are where the purest form of "self" is found. At the end of Part One, Siddhartha comes away from talking to the Buddha and realizes he doesn't want to follow what Buddha says; he wants to follow what his pure "self" says. In that moment he describes awakening and finally finding who he really was. In fact he describes it like being a newborn baby. "Then suddenly this also was clear to him: he, who was in fact like one who had awakened or was newly born, must begin his life completely afresh," (Hesse 40). So, simply put, yes your nephew has his "self" and will continue to grow and change with it as his core for his whole life.
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Post by avinash on Sept 26, 2013 3:27:08 GMT
Siddhartha’s initial goal in life is “…to become empty, to become empty of thirst, desire, dreams, pleasure and sorrow — to let the Self die” (14). In this quote, Self is likened to desire, dreams, pleasure, and sorrow – feelings that are innate to human beings. Siddhartha is trying to get rid of the Self. “…but he had never really found his Self, because he had wanted to trap it…” (47). Siddhartha doesn’t completely understand his Self because he has never found it. That is why he in unable to succeed in trapping his Self. He states that meditation, fasting, and holding of the breath are only “…a temporary escape from the torment of Self” (17).
I believe Luke Paris Page does indeed have a Self. One might argue that a three day old human being isn’t aware enough to have a Self and understand his own Self. Well, Siddhartha is surely old enough to be able to understand these concepts, right? Yet, even at his advanced age he struggles to come to terms with his Self (as seen above). When he meets and interacts with Kamala, he is no longer an ascetic and indulges in behaviors that go against his values as a Samana. Siddhartha vacillates between trying to contain his Self and allowing it to roam free. This doesn’t change even as Siddhartha ages. Though Luke may not know he has a Self, that doesn’t mean he doesn’t possess a Self. Siddhartha may know he has a Self but he definitely hasn’t come to terms with it. Siddhartha’s story shows that the Self doesn’t magically develop with age. This leads me to the conclusion that we are all born with a Self. Ultimately, being able to control one’s Self is futile.
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Post by clairem on Sept 26, 2013 3:35:58 GMT
After thinking about this question a lot for the past few days since it was posed in class and after fawning over baby Luke with my mom, I have finally come to a sense of conclusion about this idea. Whether consciously or subconsciously, because of his young age, Luke indeed has a 'self' and has been developing it over his few days on earth. This is just the start to a long journey of growing, adapting, and changing, but being born really is the first moment one is given a self. At first when thinking about this topic I believed that one cannot claim a sense of self without understanding how their actions affect those around them, but then I remember a documentary that I watched a few years ago. The documentary was about babies and one of the main points I took away from the film was how babies learn that smiling is a good thing. When a baby smiles they usually gain an audible and visible reaction of happiness in response to their actions and subconsciously the baby will associate good things and responses with the act of smiling. Although this process is subconscious I believe that it still goes to show that even at an incredibly early age babies are realizing their affect on the world around them, which is vital to developing a sense of self.
In Siddhartha, the young Siddhartha grows tired of his father bossing him around as he yells, "I know, however, that you continually punish me an make me feel small with your piety and indulgence. You want me to become like you, so pious, so gentle, so wise, but just to spite you, I would rather become a thief and a murdered and go to hell" (Hesse 123). Not long after this scene, young Siddhartha leaves in the middle of the night and Vasudeva comments, "he is doing what you yourself have neglected to do. He is looking after himself; he is going his own way" (Hesse 124). Growing up young Siddhartha sees the disregard that his father has for the younger Siddhartha's individuality and well-being. He realized the profound affect that people can think that they have on another person's character, but that unless that person allows it to get to them they don't have to become anything they don't want to be. Instead, young Siddhartha pursues his own 'self' after taking his father's overbearingness and learning from it rather than letting it define him.
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Post by garygates on Sept 26, 2013 3:45:33 GMT
If we are to use Siddhartha's explanation of self, that being the part of a human that comes from, "Too much knowledge...too many holy verses, too many sacrificial rites, too much mortification of the flesh, too much doing and striving" (99), then I believe that Luke Parris Page would in fact not have a self. Luke, in this picture, is far too young to have clouded his true identity with a facade of superficial goals and actions. That being said, I disagree with Siddhartha's idea for identification of self. In fact, I think that Siddhartha has 'self' completely backwards.
When Siddhartha compares self and the inward voice he tells readers that 'self' is the detrimental internal force of which we consistently fight with. Self is a major component of arrogance; it's almost that "someone is judging me" feeling that causes us to react differently to our environment than is necessarily true for our real personality. I, however, believe that self is the truest essence of a human being. Self is not what Siddhartha escapes before he nearly plunges in the river but what he finds after shedding his layers of skin that have been thickened by falsified goals and a judgmental environment. Siddhartha only finds his self because he is momentarily stuck in a place with no goals, no judgment, and no where to run. At this moment he rids himself of all his impurities (these masks that we disguise our self with) and uncovers his true personality. He can only do so, however, because he is not focused on discovering his true nature, a goal that if ever sought after is impossible to achieve because the fact of desiring and pursuing one's self will never lead to a true understanding of one's self due to the fact that our consciousness knows what we strive to find and can substitute in its own alternate pleasing and arrogant reality instead of the truth.
By this reasoning I believe that we always have a self, yet it is generally hidden behind the mirror that we wear that reflects and conforms from the way that we wish to see ourselves fit in to our environment, thus for the majority of our lives we are just a reflection of what we see noble and important around us. We wear what we want to be. To answer the question now, yes, I believe that Luke Parris Page does have a self, but not Siddhartha's definition of self, my definition of the word. In fact, the short time we spend after birth and before learning and adapting to our environment is for most of us the only portion of our life that we truly display our isolated self as we are without the facades that we learn to develop. Yet most of us will never truly learn this feeling because in our birth we were too young to comprehend our self, and once we gain that power to comprehend and search for our self we only push it further back into the depths of our mental labyrinth.
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Post by Adrian Harter on Sept 26, 2013 3:46:02 GMT
Self, as realized by Siddhartha, is the closest thing we as humans may never get to. The distance of self is lengthened by the diversity of thoughts and teachings that accumulate in our minds, the people we meet as we grow older and the opinions we build as a result of our experiences. But at one point in life, self is the only thing that is, and that moment occurs when we have no thoughts of our own, no opinions or biases drilled into our brains. Young baby Luke is currently in the stage where he is nothing but self; a subconscious state that apprehends the environment for what the environment really is. After Siddhartha decided to dispatch the notion that he can find enlightenment through other established means, he realized that it is only through self that the world could be understood. Describing his epiphany, Hesse writes, "He looked around him as if seeing the world for the first time. The world was beautiful, strange, and mysterious" (49). The world Siddhartha now sees is brand new, as if he was living in a foreign land his entire life, only to be thrust into reality. Only, this is not the first time Siddhartha has been a part of this realm. Like Luke, Siddhartha once saw this world earlier, only its memories were lost to the clutches of time. Luke, being three days old but many years younger, is experiencing the same sensation as Siddhartha. Everything is new and mysterious, but that means nothing when a tree is a tree and the river is the river. For Siddhartha, sentient thought helped aid the journey back to self. For Luke, he will only exist in self until the others around him begin to instill change into his life.
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Post by keelycorrigan on Sept 26, 2013 3:49:02 GMT
Self is such a complex and subjective topic that determining its definitions and application have inspired many a journey—including the man of the hour, Siddhartha himself. The complexity of self makes it difficult for me to really answer whether or not Luke Parris Page, your adorable newborn nephew, has a self. Is self as Siddhartha theorizes: the ubiquitous presence in one’s mind that moves one to live? Or, could self be the simple desire to live?
Though I admire Siddhartha’s intellectual definition of self, I feel that its definition is much too narrow to be the true definition. To me, whom or whatsoever expresses the desire to live, survive and thrive, has a self in my eyes. While dearest baby Luke cannot yet begin to understand himself in the way that Siddhartha sees the idea of self, Luke expresses the desire to live. Not that I want to compare this precious gift of a child to my terrier, but I cannot seem to get my baby out of my head. Beau, my Teddy Roosevelt Terrier, cannot engage me in philosophical discussion of the amalgamation of identity or of times eternal and ever present qualities as Siddhartha tackles with his self. I see a self within him, though. I see it when he greets me upon my return from school and I see it when I leave in the morning. His expressions of love and fear and joy and desire in those moments cement my belief in my definition of soul. Luke will, without a doubt, reach the levels of self that Siddhartha theorizes, but I believe that he has an inherent self that is synonymous with this life, with his breath. Just as Siddhartha says, “Nothing was, nothing will be, everything has reality and presence,” (107) I firmly believe everyone or thing with life, reality, presence has the foundational asset of a self. He desires to breathe, he desires to live, he desires with his self—a self that is inherent to his life in every sense.
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Post by jennyxu on Sept 26, 2013 3:51:58 GMT
Two different answers exist to that question, depending on the interpretation of "self". In context of the novel, Siddhartha defines the Self as "passions and desires" (14). Though as humans age and mature, they gain many new passions and desires, babies are born with the fundamental ones, such as the need for food, sleep, and attention. Siddhartha tries to rid of the Self through methods such as fasting, to resist hunger, a desire that Luke Parris Page and all three day old babies have since birth. By the end of the novel, when Siddhartha finally accepts his Self, Govinda sees the face of a fish, a baby, a murderer, and all other creatures in Siddhartha's face. The Self, in this case, is not a defining characteristic for an individual; it is the thread that connects all living beings. The common implications of "self", however, are the characteristics that separate living beings from each other. Humans gain this "self" as they experience life, make mistakes, and feel despair, as Siddhartha learns. As a three day old baby, he might already absorb some of his environment, the conditions upon which he builds his self. So far, his self is mostly comprised of characteristics bestowed upon him by his family and surroundings, such as his name, "Luke Parris Page". As previously discussed, names are a fundamental part of our self-identity. For example, my middle name is "Joy", so I feel the pressure to live up to the implications my name creates, to be optimistic and spread happiness. Therefore, Luke Parris Page has the beginnings of a self, though this self will undergo dramatic changes as he grows up and starts to think for himself. The Self, on the other hand, exists as a constant within him, which explains why Siddhartha never successfully destroys his Self.
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