|
Post by Jason Parris on Oct 2, 2013 20:06:28 GMT
If you could have designed one of the prompts for the discussion test today, what would it have been?
|
|
|
Post by haleyjensen on Oct 2, 2013 21:08:34 GMT
Leaders and Followers
Although I find Siddhartha (the character) irritating, I also think he's dynamic. Despite his self-centered nature, I think his search for meaning in life is genuine and relatable. His quest for purpose, and his current beliefs at a given moment, appear to drive his choices in regard to who he hangs out with, who he's willing to receive counsel from, and who he rejects. This notion of leaders and followers throughout Siddhartha particularly interests me, because leaders and followers are present throughout every form of culture--this idea is expressed throughout the book. Kawaswami is a leader in the world of merchants; Buddha is a leader in the religious world; Vasudeva is a leader because Siddhartha looks up to him. Similarly, Nike is a leader in the industry of athletic wear, our country has elected a president to lead America in important matters, and we all have people in our lives who we look up to and admire. The question is, how does the leader/follower dynamic work?
The first passage where this motif of leaders and followers stuck me was when Siddhartha made the choice that he wanted to leave his home. If you check out the dialogue between Siddhartha and his father on page 11, it's hard to tell who is the leader in that scene. In general, fathers have leadership over their children because of age, laws, and often because children respect their father as a leader. Although Siddhartha's father is the one who can give him permission to leave home, Siddhartha's determined attitude greatly influences his father's decision. In fact, Siddhartha's influence on him is so great that Hesse writes, "Then the father realized that Siddhartha could no longer remain at home with him--that he had already left him" (12). This is an interesting passage to examine in regard to the leader/follower motif, but it is certainly not the only one. I think you could take just about any passage in the book and have this discussion. We would not have had time to get through all these questions in just a few minutes, but I would've asked one of the following:
What makes a leader? What makes a leader worth following? Are there any archetypal leaders/followers in Siddhartha? Is Siddhartha, the character, a leader or a follower?
|
|
|
Post by betsyrahe on Oct 2, 2013 23:26:11 GMT
Is Nirvana individual for each person?
This question did arise a few time today from the other topics and I thought it was an interesting topic to discuss. In the novel Siddhartha goes through this journey before he is enlightened and understands OM. The ferryman had a different journey, but was still able to reach nirvana. Did he hear the same thing as Siddhartha?I believe he too did hear the OM, but I think it's an interesting thing to discuss. Do people reach nirvana differently and is Nirvana different for everyone? The Buddha did have a similar journey as Siddhartha, so does that insinuate that one must do certain steps to reach nirvana?
|
|
|
Post by madisonarmst on Oct 2, 2013 23:55:30 GMT
One topic I feel we didn't address in class is the notion of love in Siddhartha. Initially, Siddhartha leaves home and rejects his father's love. He lives many years of his life believing that rejecting other's love will help him achieve Nirvana. Although he does interact with others, he never allows himself to connect with anyone on a deeper level. He has a physical relationship with Kamala, but they lack the emotional connection necessary for a deep, committed relationship. Later in the novel, however, Siddhartha learns that he has a son with Kamala. After Kamala dies, he brings his son to live with him, and discovers what love actually means. He discovers a whole new level of human connection, shortly before he reaches Nirvana. Do you think that human connection is necessary to achieve enlightenment, or is it a deeply personal process that must originate inside oneself?
Also, can enlightenment ever be achieved, or is it something that is constantly evolving in our minds?
|
|
|
Post by sheridanf on Oct 3, 2013 1:00:02 GMT
One of my favorite prompts today had us relate Emily Dickinson's poem "Between the form of Life and Life" to Siddhartha, and it made me think about how your form of life (your personality, your outlook) changes the way you perceive life. I thought about Siddhartha's unique outlook on life: for example, in the beginning he leaves his family to discover truths about the Self because he believes this is important and has the will to live the way of the ascetics. I, as well of most of us, probably wouldn't put too much importance on discovering the Self and would instead make college or getting a job a priority- these are examples of different forms of life that shape our lives. I thought of a few questions that arose from this prompt- firstly, how would the story change if Siddhartha had a different outlook on life? What would have happened if, for example, it were Govinda who went on Siddhartha's journey? And, as a more personal question, what would the story be like if we were in Siddhartha's place? What would our Self-discovering journey be like?
|
|
steph
New Member
Posts: 13
|
Post by steph on Oct 3, 2013 1:11:25 GMT
When discussing Siddhartha I realized that the novel, while being plainly archetypal, written extraordinarily simply, and featuring a flat, generally unlikable protagonist, one finds oneself (generalization disclaimer: I may be the only one) looking at it for real, resonating answers, the sort that hold the importance of "42" and give one the understanding felt when we stand up on something really really high. This book addresses the magnitude of the universe and the potential of the self, and I really want it to have answers. When Siddhartha finds his answer by the river, the "Om", I didn't find it with him. In class today we discussed "Om" and what it means, what it contains, what it is in relation to Nirvana, etc, but one question that was really interesting to me was posed right before a "Switch!" and I don't know if I'm remembering it correctly, but: Are we supposed to look at everything from the point of view of our Self or the universe? Is hearing "Om" a product of having found our Selves, is it the ability to listen as the universe does, or are they indistinguishable?
|
|
|
Post by davidqin on Oct 3, 2013 1:12:01 GMT
As Siddhartha evolves, turning from a Brahmin's son to a Samana, then to a merchant, and finally to an enlightened ferryman, he eventually learns to look within himself to see his soul. At the same time, as the book progresses, the amount of imagery used to describe the exotic landscape of India dramatically decreases. By the end of the book, there simply isn't any of the beautiful description like that on page 45: "He saw trees, starts, animals, clouds, rainbows, rocks, weeds, flowers, brook and river, the sparkle of dew on bushes in the morning, distant high mountains blue and pale; birds sang, bees hummed, the wind blew gently across the rice fields." In short, Siddhartha the narrator ceases to observe the world at large that is around him (with the exception of the river) and instead looks inside him to find perfection. He chooses to withdraw from the world to a secluded shell deep within him. Does the marginalization of the corporeal form (the environment and body), compared to the increased focus on the spiritual form, degrade in any way Siddhartha's understanding of the world around him?
|
|
Kasey
New Member
Posts: 31
|
Post by Kasey on Oct 3, 2013 1:18:37 GMT
Prompt: How has your pre-knowledge (or lack of it) affected your understanding and emotional response to Siddhartha?
It wasn't a prompt, but I found us touching on it at a lot of tables. I heard people repeatedly say that they might have liked the novel better if they had known some background on Buddhism or the novel. I know we purposely entered without any previous knowledge and I understand why, but I wish I knew more about the religion so I could better judge the novel.
|
|
|
Post by avinash on Oct 3, 2013 2:26:18 GMT
Siddhartha explains to Govinda, “The sinner is not on the way to a Buddha-like state; he is not evolving, although our thinking cannot conceive things otherwise. No, the potential Buddha already exists in the sinner; his future is already there.” (143-144)
If the “potential Buddha” exists in everyone (even a sinner), how does one evoke this spirit and reach enlightenment? Or, do you disagree that everyone has the potential to reach enlightenment? Use Siddhartha’s journey for reference.
|
|
|
Post by garygates on Oct 3, 2013 4:26:54 GMT
I did not get to all of the questions due to the necessity of leaving early so I have no idea if this was asked in any way, shape or form, but with all my ignorance:
Siddhartha says, "teachings are no use to me" (146). He believes he cannot teach wisdom.
If wisdom cannot be taught:
Is it innate? Then how is it discovered?
or
Is it learned? Then how so?
|
|
|
Post by jamiezimmerman on Oct 3, 2013 4:38:23 GMT
One really beautiful topic I stumbled upon once or twice during discussion was the nature of enlightenment itself. There are a few questions I have about enlightenment.
The first would be: Is the attainment of enlightenment different for everyone? It clearly must be, because we see three very distinct enlightenments in Vasudeva, Siddhartha, and Govinda. Vasudeva (to Siddhartha) becomes a consummate image of God in the eyes of others, while Siddhartha learns his wisdom from the secrets of the river. Vasudeva has lived a very simple and static life with little adventure, while Siddhartha has had first-hand experience from the extremes in life: ascetism and indulgence, intimately feeling the sorrows and euphoria of polar lifestyles. Govinda spends his entire life trying to learn wisdom from a supposedly enlightened-one, but he is instantly filled with the phenomenon of Om with the simple gesture of kissing Siddhartha's forehead.
The second would be: Can you ever stop becoming enlightened? Once you achieve the state of enlightenment, does it end there? Can you ever stop acquainting yourself with infinity? (Is this why Vasudeva left for the forest to die? Once you discover enlightenment, is it your time to go?)
|
|
joelk
New Member
Posts: 36
|
Post by joelk on Oct 3, 2013 5:13:21 GMT
My prompt/slip would read:
the rare songbird
If you'll recall, Kamala keeps a rare songbird in a golden cage. Siddhartha dreams about this bird and its death, symbolizing what Siddhartha feels is the inner death of “all that was good and of value in himself” after his years as a rich man (82). When Siddhartha leaves town soon afterwards, Kamala releases the bird from its cage and watches it fly into the sunset.
Aside from the obvious symbols of the songbird, I would hope that people would discuss the songbird as a symbol of human connection. While I enjoyed all of the discussions, it seemed that most of them focused on a personal quality. I found that my groups would often discuss ideas in relation to an individual—sometimes Siddhartha and sometimes a general person—but that we rarely, if ever, connected or discussed ideas as they might apply to or involve a group of people or person-to-person relationship.
So, I would hope that people might examine:
If the songbird represents a part of Siddhartha, what is the significance of the fact that Kamala owns/controls the bird?
Does the songbird (in the metaphorical sense) need to be free?
How does the songbird fit into Siddhartha’s journey to enlightenment?
Does the songbird, in addition to representing Siddhartha, represent any part of Kamala?
(If I did not pick the songbird as my prompt, however, this would be my second choice:
What is this blurt math equation that represents the timeless order these bulls searching for Nirvana were placed in an excellent jug? – Walt “Om” Whitman).
|
|
|
Post by elizabethmeyer on Oct 3, 2013 5:42:46 GMT
One thing that I'm still wondering about is: What was the purpose of Siddhartha's son? I mean, as a character. Was he meant to show that Siddhartha could, in fact, care for another person? Was he meant to show the cycle of learning and leaving, since Siddhartha left his father, and then Siddhartha's son left him? I'm just struggling to understand why Hesse even included him. Siddhartha just up and left Kamala when he decided to leave his life of pleasure - he didn't even say good-bye to her. Why include a son? Was he necessary for some larger purpose than just "Here's another Siddhartha for you dear reader". I don't think the situation with young Siddhartha was a waste of time or anything, I just wonder what his purpose was. Every character seems to have a purpose in this story - whether that is to help or hinder Siddhartha in his search for Enlightenment. Also, on a side note, I'm listening to Pandora, and it just starting playing the song "Can't Stop" by OneRepublic. It might just be me, but I think the first two verses fit Siddhartha's relationship with his son perfectly: "I guess this is what it's supposed to feel like No, we don't talk, no, we don't talk, we don't talk anymore. I guess this is what it's supposed to sound like The universe, the universe, universe is torn.
I don't want to live without you I can't live without you half the day I don't want to live without you And put life off for another day"
|
|
|
Post by moreno on Oct 3, 2013 16:44:53 GMT
I can't say that I loved Siddhartha's character. I found him to be an old-fashioned, more culturally-driven Chris McCandless. Although I don't think his character is very original, I can't help but try to determine whether or not he is a strong or weak character because that was one of the main focuses of the McCandless unit last year. Siddhartha says, "teachings are no use to me" (146). I could argue that his statement that one cannot learn about himself from a teacher is genius, but I could also argue that it is foolish and a cop-out. As for Govinda, many people have strong feelings towards his band-wagon character. I personally believe Govinda's character was created to contrast and highlight Siddhartha. Their relationship and Siddhartha's character are very interesting to me.
I would have presented the question: Is Siddhartha a weak or strong character? How does Govinda contribute to Siddhartha's wear or strong personality?
|
|
|
Post by amysohlberg on Oct 3, 2013 16:55:56 GMT
I touched on this question at one of my tables, but we had to switch soon thereafter: Why does Siddhartha have an immediate and unusual respect for Kamala when he treats everybody else in the "material" world with disdain? As I was reading I found myself fighting with this, because it seems like it doesn't quite fit with Siddhartha's character. Kamala's profession is drenched in worldly pleasures but he wants to learn from her "wisdom". Although he condescends to everyone else, he tells her, "'I am like you. You also do not love--how else could you practice love as a craft? Perhaps, people of our kind can't love. The childlike people can; that's their secret" (61). Why does Siddhartha treat her as an equal?
|
|