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Post by Jason Parris on Oct 21, 2013 19:43:31 GMT
One of the most fascinating passages (for me, anyway) from David Foster Wallace's essay was the following:
And it is this, I think, that makes Kafka's wit inaccessible to children whom our culture has trained to see jokes as entertainment and entertainment as reassurance. [2] It's not that students don't "get" Kafka's humor but that we've taught them to see humor as something you get -- the same way we've taught them that a self is something you just have. No wonder they cannot appreciate the really central Kafka joke -- that the horrific struggle to establish a human self results in a self whose humanity is inseparable from that horrific struggle. That our endless and impossible journey toward home is in fact our home.
This touches on a portrayal of "selfhood" that is drastically different than the one put forth by Hesse in Siddhartha. Examine not only what these two different versions of "selfhood" are, but also how each author goes about getting his points about the nature of self across.
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Post by moreno on Oct 21, 2013 23:42:08 GMT
I too love that passage from DFW's essay. Like the poem, "The Station," by Robert Hastings, I do not believe there is one point in our lives where everything will come together. As DFW wrote, "...our endless and impossible journey toward home is in fact our home." I too believe everything we experience on the journey to find our 'self' is in fact the self we seek. Put simply, DFW's portrayal of self is all encompassing of someone's life, while Hesse's idea of self comes together at one specific time.
Even though he is constantly learning, growing, changing and developing his 'self', Siddhartha never acknowledges that he is doing so. He constantly struggles to find a specific point in his life where the vision of himself is crystal clear. Hesse gets this point across through Siddhartha's multiple attempts to find himself and enlightenment. For example, (I can't find the page number) at one point in the novel Siddhartha states that he has learned nothing and continues on his journey. What he does not realize is that everything he is doing contributes to the never-ending self that he is seeking.
Using Kafka's work to back up his points, DFW, on the other hand, understands the ongoing struggle and idea of self. As children we, like Siddhartha, believe that the struggle is separate from the human self. We have been taught that 'self' is something achievable and that is why we do not fully understand it. In "Metamorphosis," we differentiate Gregor's time as a bug from his human self, when in reality and supported by DFW's essay, it is one in the same.
For those of you who are unfamiliar with my reference to the poem, "The Station," here it is:
Tucked away in our subconscious minds is an idyllic vision in which we see ourselves
on a long journey that spans an entire continent. We're traveling by train and, from the
windows, we drink in the passing scenes of cars on nearby highways, of children waving at
crossings, of cattle grazing in distant pastures, of smoke pouring from power plants, of row
upon row upon row of cotton and corn and wheat, of flatlands and valleys, of city skylines and
village halls.
But uppermost in our conscious minds is our final destination--for at a certain hour and on a
given day, our train will finally pull into the station with bells ringing, flags waving, and bands
playing. And once that day comes, so many wonderful dreams will come true. So restlessly, we
pace the aisles and count the miles, peering ahead, waiting, waiting, waiting for the station.
"Yes, when we reach the station, that will be it!" we promise ourselves. "When we're
eighteen. . . win that promotion. . . put the last kid through college. . . buy that 450SL
Mercedes-Benz. . . have a nest egg for retirement!"
From that day on we will all live happily ever after.
Sooner or later, however, we must realize there is no station in this life, no one earthly
place to arrive at once and for all. The journey is the joy. The station is an illusion--it
constantly outdistances us. Yesterday's a memory, tomorrow's a dream. Yesterday belongs to a
history, tomorrow belongs to God. Yesterday's a fading sunset, tomorrow's a faint sunrise. Only
today is there light enough to love and live.
So, gently close the door on yesterday and throw the key away. It isn't the burdens of today
that drive men mad, but rather regret over yesterday and the fear of tomorrow. Regret and
fear are twin thieves who would rob us of today.
"Relish the moment" is a good motto, especially when coupled with Psalm 118:24, "This is
the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."
So stop pacing the aisles and counting the miles. Instead, swim more rivers, climb more
mountains, kiss more babies, count more stars. Laugh more and cry less. Go barefoot oftener.
Eat more ice cream. Ride more merry-go-rounds. Watch more sunsets. Life must be lived as we
go along. The station will come soon enough.
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Post by garygates on Oct 22, 2013 2:49:45 GMT
The "selfhood" in Kafka's "Metamorphosis" and the "selfhood" in Hesse's "Siddhartha" differ in the manner that they are representative of the human possessing that very self. Wallace explains Kafka's selfhood to be a culmination of the events and troubles in one's life, thus an ever-evolving and expanding image reflective of the journey to find self. Hesse, however, argues the idea that one's self is the human hidden behind the facade of actions, the true image that is not changing, nor is it reflective of any life journey. Although there exists a stark contrast between these two ideas, the one item that interests me is that both examples of selfhood are arguably not discovered but rather further contorted or made more difficult to find when one searches for one's self. This paradox that getting closer to the perceived is actually distancing one's self from truth is the idea that fuels both Kafka and Hesse's writing.
Hesse explores self in Siddhartha with the experimentation of life in what we are originally led to believe to be polar opposite styles: those being vice and virtue. Siddhartha tries desperately to find his true self in both the rich life of a gambling man and the poor life of an ascetic, believing that he is destined to find himself in either of these two life paths. Siddhartha finds, however, that his self is not representative of his current path nor his actions, but rather the distancing of his actions and his true identity without the influence of environmental factors. Siddhartha only finds himself as he tries to drown himself in a river and, due to essentially a rebirth, views himself finally as an innocent and ignorant child, rather than an experienced and molded product of his environment: "That was why he had to undergo those horrible years, suffer nausea, learn the lesson of the madness of an empty, futile life till the end, till he reached bitter despair, so that Siddhartha the pleasure-monger and Siddhartha the man of property could die. He had died and a new Siddhartha had awakened from his sleep" (Hesse 100). Hesse shows his readers that though we can search endlessly for meaning in our lives, we will never truly find our honest child-like self until we give up the quest and accept what we are.
Kafka approaches self in a quite different way. Instead of the concrete epiphany that Siddhartha experiences, Gregor's never truly admits to a discoery of self, and quite possibly never truly discovers his self. Instead, Kafka leaves Gregor's previous life as a human as a sort of enigma, only providing the fact that he worked hard providing for his family. This lack of an understanding for Gregor causes the audience to characterize Gregor's life by the struggles he faces as a cockroach, constantly altering his image because if "the horrific struggle to establish a human self results in a self whose humanity is inseparable from that horrific struggle" as Wallace asserts is true, then Gregor is constantly evolving due to daily struggle, never maintaining the same self. Kafka adds to this idea by also leaving Gregor carefree of his old life and the fact that he is a cockroach. He is only concerned with his life as an insect as his struggles as a cockroach have changed his self to no longer be defined by a human identity.
Kafka also approached self in a similar manner with Grete. Although Kafka does in fact call Gregor's sister "Grete" on page 323, he does so subtly and in a way that I finally heard the name "Grete" again on page 334, I was rather confused by this unfamiliar name. Grete had been consistently called "Gregor's sister" until she herself developed an identity through her struggles with Gregor and was no longer the character who was "crying" (322) and helpless girl that began the short story but rather a "more vivacious...[and] pretty and shapely girl" (347) with an identity increasingly centered on her independence.
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Post by Lauren on Oct 22, 2013 4:18:16 GMT
When I first read this piece, I also noticed the use of "self" and had a ah-ha connection moment back to Siddhartha, but I didn't see the drast difference between the two "self" definitions. If you had asked me what my opinion of "self" was before these readings, I probably would have spatted out the "students" answer that self is something we "just have". But I think the reason I was confused about what self is, is that the student answer/my opinion is very similar to DFW's idea of self. Contrast to Siddhartha's ideas, DFW proposes that self is made from the series of events that make up life's journey. These events, however, don't necessarily have to be intentionally made in order to find one's self, but instead could be instances where we stumble upon it. These instances are the reason our self is constantly changing, but also always there, ready to be changed. I think the important difference between Siddhartha's view and DFW's view is that Siddhartha's view doesn't include those random moments. In his journey when he does spontaneous things, like going with Kamala or start gambling, he doesn't recognize how these actions add to his self. His search for self is so strong that he doesn't see what he's become because of his actions. Instead, Siddhartha looks to the world for answers and his self and finds it through his discovery of om. Hesse uses these grand revelations to develop Siddhartha's self, instead of having him change and grow from his actions and emotions form within. Kafka uses the development of Gregor's family to see how they develop a self. His family's self is different than others, because of how dependent on Gregor they are. They have a difficult time creating their own self when their constantly needing Gregor to survive. By having to go into the real world for jobs and decisions, these characters are able to see how they changed. Grete becomes "vivacious", the parents become more intimate and connect "holding each other tightly", and they all become more personable. They change because they were finally able to let go of their dependence and discover that they had a self to lean on.
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Post by elizabethmeyer on Oct 22, 2013 5:31:04 GMT
I'm stuck somewhere in between Hesse's idea of self (that one-time thing) and Kafka/DFW's idea of self (the on-going version). I guess that's because I believe both. I do think that the "self" is something we just have. We wouldn't be ourselves without it. But just because it's something we just have doesn't mean that it's necessarily on-going or a sudden revelation. I think it can be both. Without always having self, and always developing self, we wouldn't be able to have a sudden moment when we know what that self is. I like how Hesse shows that we have to find our own selves, and that we can't be shown or given ourselves by someone else. But I also like how Kafka shows that others help us define our selves. At the same time that Siddhartha knew he couldn't find his "self" by talking to the Buddha, Gregor began to change and become less like himself as his family drew away from him. Maybe an overarching, broad of putting this is that while other people can't tell us who we are, and we have to define that on our own, other people can and will influence us, which adds to our selves.
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Post by mitralebuhn on Oct 22, 2013 5:38:15 GMT
Hesse's version of self-discovery is the awareness that comes through the build up and break down of one self. Siddhartha goes through his journey to discover his selfhood by trying on different suits, so to say. He builds up different versions of who he is, a Brahmin, a Samana, a materialistic gambler, a river man, a father. And after each experience as one of these versions of himself, he breaks it down and begins again, but every time he is a little different because of his experience as that version of himself. Hesse uses Siddhartha's story to state that it is the journey the facilitates in finding oneself. Basically, Siddhartha finds himself by trying out different perspectives and ultimately realizes that he is the combination of these different perspectives.
Kafka's joke's description of self is different. He says that the self is contrived of the struggle to find self. We are how we behave in the process to figure ourself out. For example, in "Metamorphosis," Gregor is defined by his struggle as a "cockroach." He may be a cockroach, or maybe he is simply a man acting like a cockroach, but in either case that is not what matters. According to Kafka's philosophy, Gregor's "selfhood" is defined by how he handles his life journey. He is defined by the decisions he makes, the questions he asks, and the struggle he goes through, because experience is what we are.
Siddhartha's story is similar to this because he goes through a journey, but Kafka's definition is different because Siddhartha concludes that the self is found through the journey and Kafka says that self is the journey.
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Post by kevinle on Oct 22, 2013 6:12:42 GMT
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Post by madisonarmst on Oct 22, 2013 6:19:03 GMT
I see Hesse's version of self as something that is present all along, while DFW and Kafka's version of self is something that evolves over time. According to Hesse, the main challenge in life is to find one's sense of self through various experiences, while DFW would argue that your journey and the experiences you have had along the way create who you are, rather than reveal it. This ties back to the age old debate of nature vs. nurture. Are we a product of our genetic make up or does our upbringing and surroundings make us who we are?
Siddhartha goes on a long, elaborate journey in order to find himself and enlightenment. He operates under the belief that he already possess a sense of self that is out of his control, he must now go discover who he truly is....on the inside. As a society, we tend to believe that self is something that is found, rather than created. When somebody appears to be taking the wrong path in their life or when a teenager is accused of committing a crime, we often say, "They are just lost". This implies that once this person has discovered themselves yet. Perhaps it is more comforting to think that we are born with a sense of self, or that is attributed to our early childhood. If who we are is something that we must find, rather than create, the journey suddenly becomes much easier. Instead of having to create an identity and purpose for ourselves, we believe that it already exists and we simply must find it. By believing that our sense of self is predetermined for us, are we taking the easy way out of an incredibly complex question and robbing ourselves of a profound journey to create our sense of self?
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Post by betsyrahe on Oct 22, 2013 19:08:35 GMT
I have always found it hard to not associate self with something that we just have which I think just makes the point of DFW makes. American's are told that individuality and their "self" is one of the most important things about a person. I find it interesting that Kafka's "self" is a self you achieve similar how in Siddhartha self was something the character was trying to remove. Both writers seem to believe its not something we just always have. The essence of Gregor was very much tied into the fact that how was now a bug. That is not to say he has humanity in him, but like DFW says his self is very much tied into that struggle. Hesse's self was often a selfish thing that could fall for temptations and depended on earthly things. Kafka's self is something we strive for as humans which is established by our deeds. I also agree with Elizabeth that these "self"s can coexist.
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Post by emilybrinkmann on Oct 22, 2013 20:55:18 GMT
I can't believe I am saying this but I believe that Hesse has a much more "obvious" vision of what selfhood is and the way he portrays it in Siddhartha. He struggles on his path and in the end finds his self when he loses himself and stops looking. I find this much more relatable that DFW's take on the self that Kafka's writing. I have never thought much about self till I entered the classroom with Mr.Parris, I had a loose interpretation that revolved around personality and our own identity determining who we are. Both of the authors show me that self is something you must work for, and set out to find, and if you are lucky you may fins it before you die. I think the "humor" that Kafka was trying to show was the irony that self has nothing to do with appearance, or even whats inside us, it has to do with the essence of our soul. A pattern that I noticed (or just something to think about) is that bother Siddhartha and Gregor found their self when they lost something within themselves. Gregor lost his human form, and Siddhartha lost his son and in a way his ignorance. Both authors make me look at the idea of self in a new and "deeper" way, I have never really been fascinated and interested in finding the self in me, and now it seems like a lot of work, but worth something more than time itself. Kafka and Hesse do a phenomenal job of having their versions of the self contrast and coexist in the same world. They feed off each other and are very similar in very different ways.
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Post by samwerner on Oct 22, 2013 23:59:41 GMT
There is a clear difference between the "self" that Hesse describes Siddhartha's search for, and DFW's intepretation of in Kafka's work. Hesse seems to portray the self as an amalgamation of experiences while on a journey in search of a self that was already there, just not discovered. DFW's idea is quite different in assuming that the self isn't discovered. The long and perilous journey in hopes of reaching an enlightened vision of ones self actually becomes the self, because all the focus lies in the journey.
Hesse's entire work reflects his belief that the self is an attainable feature that one finds through experience. Siddhartha's varying path of life is full of an array of different views, socioeconomic positions and human interactions. Hesse makes it seem as though Siddhartha, and everyone else, may only attain their self by following the long, winding path that is Siddhartha's life. He makes it clear that every experience--sensual, intellectual, metaphysical or other--is an essential aspect of finding ones self. DFW portrays Kafka's very differently. Kafka's ideas in "Metamorphosis" reflect what DFW touched on: the journey becomes the self because the hope of discovery becomes futile. The self is most certainly not something we just have, in DFW's opinion. That is a reason why most of us have trouble interpreting the humor in Kafka's work, because we connect it to a virtue or critical lens that we find important as a piece of the puzzle that defines humanity and selfhood. Whereas Hesse portrays the self as a cornucopia of intellectuality at the end of a long journey, DFW shows that Kafka's portrayal is slightly darker. Kafka shows that as a character struggles, without hope, to progress and learn, the struggles become the self.
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Post by sheridanf on Oct 23, 2013 0:08:45 GMT
The self according to Hesse and the self according to Kafka is different based off of how they believe it is allowed to change. For Hesse, the self changes through an awakening- you open your eyes to something different and new, but in reality it was there all along. You are also able to awake many times, as Siddhartha did (Hesse specifically writes that Siddhartha "opened his eyes" or "woke up" when becoming a rich man and when becoming a ferryman). For Kaska, however, the self changes through a metamorphosis- you shed an old form to become something completely new.
There is something somewhat terrifying, I believe, in Kafka's interpretation of the self. In The Metamorphosis, Gregor experiences his change of self-becoming a cockroach- but is never able to change back. Perhaps, then, none of us can change back once we undergo a change, which is scary, because if we want to become our old selves again, as Gregor did, we may die. Hesse definitely views the self in a more positive light- Siddhartha changes multiple times throughout the course of the novel and sees each change as necessary for a final, best form that Siddhartha finds at the end. I wonder if Kafka sees any hope at all for use in terms of what we do with our selves, or if our attempts to change are just one big joke. |
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Post by clairem on Oct 23, 2013 0:30:42 GMT
The concept of self is such a slippery topic and even after reading multiple stories that deal with the matter, I would not be able to define it even if I was forced to. What makes this journey I am on to discover the meaning more difficult is the fact the Hesse and Kafka present very different views on the idea of self. Throughout Siddhartha, Hesse made it clear that self is something that humans possess from the beginning of their lives and as they experience new things they try out new lenses on life until eventually they match up the perfect set of lenses to see the self that they possess. This is a more ambigious version of self as humans cannot always see clearly how their experiences are changing their perspectives until it all comes into focus at once. Siddhartha tries on different lenses as a Brahmin, Samana, Gambler, etc. and after taking bits and pieces of these lives he endured he forms the ideal set of lenses to reveal his self.
On the flip side of this lies the view of Kafka who envisions self as something that humans form and develop over time, watching along the way. For example, in Metamorphisis, Gregor grows as a character as a bi-product of the events that he is forced to endure (ie: turning into a cockroach and experiences denial from his family). Gregor’s change and development of his self through this timeline is outwardly revealed, just as Kafka believes self is something that humans begin to form when they are young and continue to develop through experiences. This differs from Hesse in that Hesse believed every human has a self but their experiences allow them to see this self and Kafka believes humans develop their own self and watch it form and re-shape itself.
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Post by carolinedorman on Oct 23, 2013 1:39:48 GMT
Although Hesse’s and Kafka’s interpretation of “selfhood” is different, they both have the same essential message. As Hesse illustrates in Siddartha, it is not possible to find oneself by following the teachings of others. Wisdom is not communicable; it is gained only through personal experience. Therefore it is not unreasonable that two different human beings and authors should write dissimilar interpretations about “self”. Both authors are essentially saying that finding self requires one’s own personal journey. Hesse places finding one’s self at the end of the journey should the lucky wanderer find enlightenment. Kafka, on the other hand, portrays the journey to finding one’s self as the actual self.
The reader gets to experience Hesse’s development of selfhood through Siddhartha’s revelations and different experiences. The ending wraps up his journey with a bow and Siddhartha is finally able to find enlightenment and his self. Hesse directly presents his knowledge about finding self while paradoxically also stating that one cannot find oneself through the teaching of others. Kafka, however, uses different methods to portray his idea of finding one’s self. He plays with absurdity by using a human transformed into a cockroach. Like Wallace says, he uses a rare form of humor to expose the idea that “That our endless and impossible journey toward home is in fact our home”.
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Post by austinellerbruch on Oct 23, 2013 1:42:28 GMT
According to Hesse, the self can only be found through devoted search and by the revelation encountered at the end of the search, as shown by Siddhartha's journey. But to Kafka, the self always has and always will exist within an individual, therefore it is useless to go searching for the self. In Siddhartha's, the title character discovers the self by experiencing the luxuries and cruelties of life, and it is through his life's journey that he finally discovered the self that he has been searching for. In "The Metamorphosis," the self is displayed by its metaphorical representation being brought to life (in this case a roach). The physical manifestation of Gregor's self displays the self's apparent existence in Kafka's eyes. These are two totally different concepts of the self that are presented, one in which the self must be discovered and one where the self is an entity that remains with the individual throughout his or her existence.
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