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Post by sammywong on Mar 5, 2014 6:01:13 GMT
Critiquing somebody's own personal connection to a piece of literature seems harsh to me. Being not only a designated reader response but a naturally inclined one outside of the classroom (and outside of reading for that matter) I want to congratulate O'Rourke for finding meaning to her own life in a work of Shakespeare. Shakespeare. The name is a beast in itself. I think many can feel self doubt that parts of their own lives can be woven in the same fashion as Shakespeare weaves his characters into plot and plot into hugely recognized and praised pieces of art. O'Rourke not only claims to have experienced Hamlet as of commonality, but she uses the play as a therapy in her own life, a medium in which she learns that she is not crazy for feeling the amount of grief she experiences.
That being said, I think Rourke spits up a lot of unnecessary and questionable remarks that, while on the surface support her stance on grief not depression, do not gives her idea the support she is wanting. "Researchers have found that the bereaved are at a higher risk for suicideality (or suicidal thinking and behaviors) than the depressed." What research is this?! Is that even how you spell suicidality*? Can the bereaved not be depressed and the depressed not be bereaved? In this blind, desperate grab for "factual evidence" to support her initial claims mainly based on emotional, personal experiences, O'Rourke unnecessarily muddles her otherwise credited theory. I do not think O'Rourke needed facts and evidence in addition to what she has originally. O'Rouke elegantly paints her painful picture of loss, suffering, and loneliness. Her own story is living proof that grieving Hamlet is plausible.
I think what O'Rourke is trying to say is that grief makes less sense than depression does. Grief is not calculated. Grief is entirely a creation of emotion on a pogostick. Hamlet is not crazy, he is just figuratively on his pogostick. Bounce, bounce.
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Post by racheladele on Mar 5, 2014 6:06:25 GMT
O’Rourke’s comments make sense. Grief can drive people in so many ways, and everyone responds differently to the emotion. Because of this, I feel almost guilty for judging Hamlet as “crazy” because I do not personally know how it feels to lose a parent, and I cannot determine what an acceptable way to react would be. We mentioned in class that Hamlet probably didn’t really know his father very well, partially based on Act III scene iv lines 55-62, when Hamlet compares his father to many different gods. But again, if grief and depression from the passing of his father made Hamlet the character he is during the play, we cannot judge the validity of his grief. We know he is sensitive, and his lack of control after the death of a parent, no matter how close to this parent he may have been, reveals that even further.
If O’Rourke’s claims are true and the instability of our protagonist comes from inner grief, one problem that worsens everything is that Hamlet lacks a secure coping mechanism. We learned about coping mechanisms in the psychological criticism presentation, and I’m sure Hamlet embodies at least a few, but he doesn’t have a pastime, something to keep his mind busy. As O’Rourke said, she took to reading. Personally, I choose television. Perhaps this is why Hamlet gets so excited at the arrival of the players; theater is his outlet, his escape from reality (as it is for so many people, including myself). Unfortunately, this does not go perfectly, because it only reminds Hamlet again of his father’s death and his inability to avenge the murder. Hamlet tells himself that the act of killing Claudius would make things right but never seems to possess the ability to do so. He makes excuses, using the plan to numb his grief and delaying it out of denial. Steve pointed out the stages of grief and how Hamlet behaves accordingly to the rubric, with denial as one of the first pieces of evidence. Finally, somewhat unrelated, I find it fascinating that this play about a guy who goes crazy following the loss of his father is used as relatable comfort, a way to maintain sanity, for others who lose parents, as O’Rourke described.
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Post by juliamoreland on Mar 5, 2014 6:07:37 GMT
While I love the article and its interpretation (I’ll come back to it in a moment), I still agree with Lacey that Hamlet is still going a little crazy.
First of all, holy cow this article changed my way of thinking. I really enjoyed how O’Rourke even analyzed Hamlet’s language. His run on sentences and muddled metaphors point to how he does not know how to commutate his grief. The one I particularly enjoyed was O’Rourke’s discussion of Hamlet’s puns. In almost all serious, stressful, or sad situations, I have personally seen many people resort to a common thread of humor. Humor distracts, brightens the mood, takes away the pain temporarily. Hamlet is desperate for the release of this pain and he uses the commonalty of humor.
Thinking about Hamlet struggling because everyone sees him as crazy makes my heart hurt. Super duper reader response-y Jessica was right! Now I sympathize because instead of picturing Hamlet as a crazy, sexual, and cowardly man, I see him as a young boy longing for a father. Ahhh conflicting images!
Back to Lacey’s point, it is possible all of the social rejection has led Hamlet to madness, but lets keep in mind he still has killed a dude. I almost want to give Hamlet a temporary insanity bargain, but I know worse is in store. How far are we willing to excuse Hamlet’s violent and inappropriate behavior for grief? I don’t know the answer, but I’m hoping to form an opinion as we read on.
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Post by naomiporter on Mar 5, 2014 6:19:07 GMT
This theory was certainly very compelling. I agree with the author and with most people who have posted so far that this adds a lot to Hamlet's character, making him a character the reader can understand and relate to better. The most interesting aspect of this theory in my opinion is how it impacts our view of Hamlet's insanity. When we look at the story through this lens, his "insanity" seems to be more like a reasonable reaction to the world as he is experiencing it. As O'Rourke says, "He goes mad because madness is the only method that makes sense in a world tyrannized by false logic." As everyone grieves in their own way and pace, it is very reasonable that he would experience the grief in a way that would cause him to not know what to do or how to interact with the world, especially considering the chaos and insanity of everything going on around him. I know that if I were grieving my dad, it would not exactly help me in the grieving process if my mom immediately married my uncle who had stolen my throne and who (as my dad's ghost would tell me) murdered my dad. Given all of this context, I certainly am inclined (like everyone else) to feel sympathetic.
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steph
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Post by steph on Mar 5, 2014 6:36:02 GMT
I am of those who were not greatly impressed upon by O'Rourke's article. I believe that there are aspects of Hamlet's complexity that cannot be explained away by grief for his father's death, not even for the slightly more complicated situation concerning the loss of his throne. The change in Hamlet reminds me of Gregor's metamorphosis, from human to cockroach. Not to say that Hamlet is now utterly repulsive or difficult to empathize with, rather, his reality has been transformed and we are watching him cope with it while he is alienated by those who loved him. Pieces of Hamlet that do not seem to be explained by simple (albeit powerful) grief include his remarks to Ophelia, his reaction to his mother, and his eventual need for blood. His reality not only sharpened, seeing "the world more accurately" as the article describes O'Rourke's personal change, but it's turned around to somewhere he does not recognize. Acknowledging the power of grief and not downplaying it while reading Hamlet is a wonderful benefit to reading the article, but this play needs a more complex answer.
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Post by madisonarmst on Mar 5, 2014 6:43:19 GMT
This article forced me to see Hamlet (the character) in a new light. Previously, I thought he was just flat out crazy and manipulative. He acts completely irrationally and has no ability to comprehend his actions or how they affect other people. O'Rourke, however, posits that Hamlet's irrational actions stem from his grief over his father. Her argument, however, is entirely emotional and only based on her own experiences with grief. I am in no way discounting her own feelings and experiences, but her argument is not based on the text. She does use quotes from the text, and I applaud her for that, but her quotes deal with death and sadness--two themes that are ever-present through out this play and do not necessarily prove that Hamlet is experiencing an overwhelming sense of grief. There is validity to O'Rourke's argument depending on how you read the play. If you believe that Hamlet is truly insane and that he only imagined his father's ghost, it is reasonable to believe that Hamlet is grief-stricken. The issue I have with Hamlet being grief stricken is that his relationship with his father is never established before his death. As readers, we have no idea what type of relationship they shared. The combination of our lack of information and Hamlet's focus on revenge lead me to believe that Hamlet is not overwhelmed with grief, but instead focused on the power struggle between himself and his uncle. O'Rourke seems so set on the presence of grief in Hamlet, that she molds the text to fit her feelings after personally experiencing it.
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joelk
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Post by joelk on Mar 5, 2014 6:59:14 GMT
I found the most interesting part of the article to be O'Rourke's choice of phrasing. She writes, "Strangely, Hamlet somehow made me feel it was OK that I, too, had 'lost all my mirth.'" Now, I totally agree that works like Hamlet that allow you to find some way to reflect upon your own grief can help you feel much better. I think she overlooks, though, the very events she acknowledges occur in Hamlet.
To me, at least, Hamlet's grief isn't a good thing. It's an understandable thing, but it's not a positive trait. Under O'Rourke's interpretation, it leads to his anger at those around him, it leads to his withdrawal from Ophelia (causing them both sadness), and it leads to him "accidentally [killing] with a dagger." O'Rourke sums up Hamlet's life nicely with her choice of the word "disintegrated." So why, then, would Hamlet, which illustrates some of the worst-case scenarios this grief can cause, make her feel that things would be "OK" for her, feeling the same grief?
Maybe I'm too harsh on O'Rourke here—it's been a few years since I've experienced the sort of grief she talks about—but I think the power of Hamlet to comfort and heal the grieving lies not in its "capture" of a total picture of grief. Rather, I think it's something she briefly mentions near the end of her article: "It is, to be honest, strangely comforting to see my own worst thoughts mirrored back at me—perhaps because I do not feel likely to go as far into them as Hamlet does" (emphasis mine).
I'd say the "locus of power" in Hamlet and any similar work viewed through the lens of grief is not that it depicts grief, but to what extent and with—to borrow a gov term—what sort of "spin." There are countless books and movies I've read and seen that make me feel more for the main character than I do for Hamlet. Yet these works of art—A Tale of Two Cities, Titanic, Tuesdays with Morrie—don't necessarily take grief to its fullest extensions. We see a heroine who names her kids after another who sacrificed, or a main character who has long moved on and is looking back with nostalgia, or a narrator who tries to put an uplifting spin on the tragic ending. We don't often see Hamlet and its blatant, unabashed picture of just how much grief can tear apart.
Somehow, for reasons I'm probably not qualified to speculate on but will anyway, seeing how awful someone else's grief is seems to temper our own. O'Rourke's article suggests it's not the caring but not-grieving friends who help us eventually recover, but those in a worse situation. We don't want to be told to keep our chin up, told that things get better, told by every other person we meet that the sun will come up tomorrow regardless. We know that's so, at some level, even if we temporarily forget it or force it from our conscious mind. I think we need to see how bad it could get, and then realize that's now how we want to end up. And then, sans any moralizing message, we begin to slowly self-correct.
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Post by Anna M. on Mar 5, 2014 7:00:21 GMT
I had to reread this article. It made me tear up and it upsets me that the sometimes difficult to comprehend language (elizabethan) that Shakespeare uses made me unaware of just how beautiful the obvious truth in Hamlet really is. I prefer O'Rourke's interpretation of Hamlet because, while I understand the reasoning behind the Oedipal analysis of Hamlet, I think the core of this play is about grief and how a uniquely human emotion can be seen as inhuman by those who aren't stricken by it. Perhaps Hamlet hesitates to kill Claudius because he doesn't want others to feel what he feels, he is less sympathetic towards Claudius and more towards those who might truly care about him-- Gertrude, for example. Anyways, that's just an idea that came to mind as I was reading the article.
The article brings up an interesting distinction: grief vs. depression. Grief is a process while depression is feeling "down in the dumps". Hamlet is beyond feeling blue, a person whom he strongly admired, and loved, is gone forever. I often have dreams that my parents die in. I wake up in a sweat, but when reality is reintroduced to me, I feel a burst of relief, like finally getting a breathe of air after being submerged in water. Hamlet doesn't get to feel that relief, and thinking about this makes feel even more sympathy for him. The process of removing oneself from the horror of this soul crushing feeling must be long and arduous, and grief is actually looking for some escape from the pain, "Hamlet is less searching for death actively than he is wishing powerfully for the pain to go away". I think this is the difference between the grief that he has and the depression the people believe he is living with. Grief is painful, it is not just the feeling of melancholy.
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Post by mitralebuhn on Mar 5, 2014 7:29:18 GMT
I agree with Madison that O'Rourke's argument was based off of emotion and not grounded in text that was specific to her point. Regardless of her use of Hamlet quotations and references to run-on sentences, I feel there is not quote specific enough to really back-up her point. But, I think she does a wonderful job of evoking empathy in her readers, and that is what drives her point. As for my experience, because I could feel her grief and somewhat understand it, I could transfer that emotion to empathize with Hamlet and understand his perspective a little more clearly. It is lines like, "Grief can also make you feel, like Hamlet, strangely flat. Nor is it ennobling, as Hamlet drives home. It makes you at once vulnerable and self-absorbed, needy and standoffish, knotted up inside, even punitive," that contain a certain sincerity that really help me feel both O'Rourke and Hamlet's perspective. I also would like to discuss Hamlet's relationship with his father. It's been mention both on the forum and in class that the entire story would change if we only knew what kind of relationship Hamlet had with his father. But, in this interpretation, I feel his level of closeness doesn't even matter. After pondering parental death I've come to the conclusion that regardless of the kind of relationship a child has with his parent, he ail still feel a profound loss when his parent passes because of the biological connection to a parent. Now I cannot back up this point with text, but it just seems logical to me. We are born with a deep understand that our parents are there to protect us, and to a lose a parent means losing a sense of safety. So I can understand that Hamlet's reaction to death could drive him relatively crazy, as he is suddenly abandoned and alone, and trapped by a societal expectation of revenge. O'Rourke says, "And it's also to feel, quite powerfully, that you're not allowed to descend into the deepest fathom of your grief—that to do so would be taboo somehow. Hamlet is a play about a man whose grief is deemed unseemly." Just as Hamlet is stuck, unable to openly express his grief, I theorize that he feels trapped in his level of nobility, in his relationship with ophelia, and within his own mind as he is pulled between the slowness of grief and the aggression of revenge.
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Post by rubyking on Mar 5, 2014 7:31:24 GMT
I really liked O'Rourke's little essay, because her interpretation of Hamlet is the closest to what I have come to think of him as. As Anna just sad, grief and clinical depression are different things. But Hamlet is not just mourning the death of his father--I think he feels a real sadness in the fact that he's lost his one source of emotional support, Gertrude, to the enemy. Hamlet is secluded with no one to really vent his feelings and grief to; and that to me is tragic. He has no one to really validate his actions in life.
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Post by samwerner on Mar 5, 2014 7:41:25 GMT
My favorite line of O'Rourke's piece was, "Hamlet is the best description of grief I've read because it dramatizes grief rather than merely describing it. Grief, Shakespeare understands, is a social experience." Something about the idea of grief as a social experience, and not merely an internalized, individual feeling clicks with me. It appears to be human nature to make evident ones grief, often as a means of attention. If the grief is real, that attention can lead to easier help by not requiring the griever to go asking for it. Both for Hamlet and people today, grief changes the actions of those around you. It almost seems as though Hamlet's reaction to his father's death shapes Gertrude's character--her interactions with Hamlet in particular. It is a truly peculiar idea to think that one's emotions can completely alter the actions of those around him.
I also really like what Gary concluded with, as it was a conclusion I was considering myself. Gary posed and attempted to answer a deep question: "Are we not always in an infinite tumultuousness of ideas and mind? Constancy would then be inconceivable and we would then really have no permanent ideals because although we may hold certain items closer to heart, our opinions of them would always differ." Hamlet's (or any human's) emotions at any given time not only affect his surroundings, but also the way he interprets the things around him. In that sense, finding any sort of congruencies in one's ideals would prove difficult, seeing as how at any given time, one ideal could be perceived in a different manner. The best way for me to overcome the sense of hopelessness such an idea provides me with is to posit that although emotions may alter perspectives, some part of us supercedes our emotional tumultuousness and hangs on for dear life to the things we believe in most, also leaving us with a more concrete ground from which to analyze from.
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Post by coreybrown on Mar 5, 2014 8:43:16 GMT
I really enjoyed this portrayal of Hamlet as I think it differs greatly from what we've seen over and over again. Previously, Laertes and Hamlet seemed to be portrayed in similar circumstances with vastly different reactions. Hamlet the play takes ages to get around to a resolution, Laertes the play is BAM done in a heartbeat. Before this, we talked a lot about Hamlet's waiting around and halfheartedness about the whole endeavor. This article beautifully displayed what, in my opinion, is a more accurate description of Hamlet's response to his father's passing. This past Friday was my grandmother's yahrzeit (meaning that she passed away one year ago that day in the Hebrew/Lunar calendar) and it brought back a lot of what I was feeling last year. She wasn't my parent (nor, as this article points out, was she murdered either), but she was important to me. Perhaps I, like Hamlet to his father, didn't know her well enough, that I held her on a pedestal in my mind, but lacked a stronger connection. The grief of the loss of a loved one combined with the guilt that comes with wishing you'd payed them more attention/been kinder/more understanding/etc. is immobilizing. It's no wonder that, piled on with his Uncle Dad and Confusing (Aunt) Mom, the betrayals of his friends, and the appearance of his ghostly father, that Hamlet delays as much as he does. There are two kinds of grief portrayed in Hamlet. As I previously stated, there is Hamlet's which is immobilizing, but on the other hand we have Laertes' grief which, with encouragement, prompts him to immediate action. These are two very different, very real reactions to loss and I completely agree with this article in that Hamlet (the play) does not shy away from addressing and showing grief in it's full form.
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Post by patricktbutenhoff on Mar 5, 2014 14:59:30 GMT
I think one of the reasons Hamlet is so canonical, even after four centuries, is that the protagonist really isn't a detestable character. Personally, I've always read Hamlet's depression as being brought on entirely by his father's death, not by philosophical anxiety, but O'Rourke's article really lights up how understandable, how human, Hamlet's character is. It's easy to forget, especially near the end of the play, that Hamlet's problems are brought about by the great wrong that's been done him. By the end of Act IV, it's hard not to think of Hamlet as the guy who murdered Polonius and drove Ophelia to her death. At the same time, however, it's crucial to remember that the root cause of Hamlet's behavior is his grief and its subsequent repression. One has to feel sympathy for the prince when his own mother tells him to "cast [his] nighted color off" after the death of her own husband. Hamlet is hopelessly alone, trapped as the only one who remembers his father. This is a completely understandable emotion; all of us have felt or will feel true grief at some point in our lives. I once felt upset when I found similarities between myself and Hamlet, but O'Roarke makes me feel better about it. Hamlet is still legendary today because in a way, it reflects all of humanity both in Shakespearean times and today. It's an beautifully tragic image of the human form when all the supports are kicked out from under it. The largest thing I took away from O'Rourke's article is that Hamlet is an understandable character with a reason for his actions; he's not just a madman who incites trouble in Denmark.
The question this line of reasoning poses, then, is that of fault. A bunch of people die in Hamlet. Whom do we blame? King Hamlet's death is horrible, but does that really excuse all of Hamlet's subsequent actions? I'm not sure the fact that Prince Hamlet is wronged in the start of the play allows me to fully forgive him for murdering a person who wasn't directly involved in the regicide and driving another to commit suicide. To what extent, then, do our circumstances excuse our actions? Is past trauma a legitimate justification for present sin? We feel sympathy for Hamlet when we read his play, but we also feel distanced from him because of his negative actions. How much of this is Hamlet's fault, and how much of it is a product of the world he lives in? The same can be said for the other characters. Ophelia certainly intends no harm, Laertes goes berserk only after his entire family is slain, Fortinbras is only avenging his father's death. Even King Claudius doesn't want any of the deaths that actually occur in the body of the play. Maybe this is the true definition of a tragedy: when horrible things happen, even if they're not necessarily anyone's fault.
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Post by billfeng on Mar 5, 2014 16:37:17 GMT
O’Rourke’s analysis of Hamlet’s grief really stirred my can of beans (my head).
As Sheridan notes, we attempt to elevate the work of Hamlet to the highest aesthetic echelons of English literature. In result, I think it’s become the status quo to look at Hamlet the play from a perspective of artistic extremes and (i.e. Laertes being the absolute epitome of vengeance).
Shakespeare may have as well been writing a play off of the intense consequences of deep grief when he wrote Hamlet. As O’Rourke posits, Shakespeare may have written Hamlet as a genuinely realistic interpretation of real trauma. As for my reaction to the article, I took a step back from the “insane Hamlet” theory and Ernest Jones’ Oedipus-Hamlet theory. For a while last night, I looked at Hamlet from a realistic human perspective. From that lens-shift, I found Hamlet’s ponderance of suicide, his rejection of Ophelia, and his gripping interaction with Gertrude to be incredibly human, albeit irrational. This article actually drew me closer to shaping the question I want to utilize for my essay. Thankssss
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Post by amysohlberg on Mar 5, 2014 17:10:12 GMT
I liked this article a lot because it showed a different side of Hamlet that I didn't really consider. More than what it said about Hamlet, though, I think this article showed a lot about how we read Hamlet. Mr. Parris has been encouraging us to form our own picture of Hamlet, to make the story our own. I think O'Rourke has done the same thing. Her intense experience with grief when her mother died opened up a whole new way for her to read the play. In a way, Hamlet is a reader-response critic's dream. It's almost as if Shakespeare has created a detailed mirror that we can reflect our own lives on to in order to try to make some sense of it all. I think all the well-supported interpretations we have seen are the "right" one. I think Hamlet was designed to be a one-size-fits-all, a story that can be interpreted in a way that lasts for centuries, across social boundaries, age groups, and genders.
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