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Post by natalieskowlund on Apr 24, 2014 4:29:34 GMT
Ruth and the Doctor...Ruth and Milkman...Milkman and Hagar...What's up with the sexual dynamics in Song of Solomon? There's an uncomfortable level of sexual tensions and histories between members of the same bloodline. How does this strange dynamic affect interactions and relationships between characters, and how does it add to the overall tone and message of Toni Morrison's work? |
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Post by natalieskowlund on Apr 24, 2014 5:13:39 GMT
While sexual intimacy is generally associated with a strong amount of emotional intimacy, in this book it seems that sexual intimacy is more symbolic of misunderstanding and power struggles than an expression of love and trust. While incest is certainly frowned upon in our society, the characters in this book seem driven towards incestuous relationships not due to sexual attraction (for the most part) but because they all want to assert power and dominance over one another. Although we don't know much about the Doctor thus far, we do know that he was very into prestige and titles and maintaining his family's light skin tone. And while the only proof of sexual interactions between Ruth and the Doctor have come from the mouth of Macon, who I'm not quite sure I trust yet, the insinuation is that the Doctor could keep Ruth under his power so long as the two were sexually active. Macon even questioned whether the Doctor intended to continue his light-skinned lineage in that way.
The relationship between Ruth & Milkman is actually quite similar. Macon evidently neglects Ruth, leaving her a lonely wife and mother whose only job is to care for the children and the house. Yet, Ruth longs to feel purposeful, as though someone needs her. Thus, her continued nursing of Milkman far beyond the appropriate age limit might be interpreted as Ruth's attempt to hold onto her own sense of utility & duty. For, once Milkman grows up, he will not be as dependent on Ruth for care, and she will be left even further isolated in a home with family members who don't seem to appreciate her.
As for Milkman and Hagar, their relationship confuses me a bit more than the others. If Milkman is so popular, why would he become involved with his own cousin? While I think I need to read further to understand this relationship more thoroughly, I suppose that Hagar might, in a way, represent Milkman's relationship with his father, Macon. Macon has been domineering and gruff with Milkman for his entire life, so perhaps Milkman is attracted to Hagar because she symbolizes rebellion from Macon's expectations for Milkman. Macon told Milkman to stay away from Pilate, Reba and Hagar, but Milkman doesn't listen to him. In becoming involved with Hagar, Milkman defies Macon in a very tangible manner which perhaps allows him to feel more equal to his father.
This also harkens back to the idea of "owning people & things," which Macon esteems highly. In fact, he has based his whole life around owning things: real estate. Is Morrison commenting on our inherent desire to compete with and dominate others, even those we're supposed to be closest to and care about most? Is the true goal in life to "own things," whether or not we want to admit it?
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Post by cassiecumberland on Apr 24, 2014 17:21:03 GMT
I think many people are prone to blaming the entirety of the situation on Macon. Although he definitely is part of the problem, it seems that Ruth may be suffering from some psychological issues that we just haven't uncovered yet. Her problem with incestuous sexual intimacy seems to have stemmed from before she was wedded to Macon, therefore, is it even Macon's fault? I agree with what Natalie said about Ruth gaining her sense of purpose through being "loved" or at least recognized by various people (the doctor, Milkman, Macon), but I think that this, again, stems from some purpose that we haven't uncovered yet. I don't think it's fair to assume anything at this point.
I, too, question Macon's ideal of "owning" things. It truly contrasts with what we were talking about yesterday in class about July's controversial scene where he takes's the Bakkie, because there, July shows that once the power is "equal" no one really owns thing. This truly contrasts with how Macon truly holds onto hierarchy and power.
I wonder what Song of Solomon's main message will be! I'm super excited because so far I've loved this book!
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Post by gracepark on Apr 24, 2014 22:50:38 GMT
I’m glad Natalie brought up the question of whether incest in Toni Morrison’s book is sick or symbolic because I was also struggling with this idea myself. Incest is obviously a huge concept in this story but it’s strangely not our first taste of such relationships considering we witnessed a similar thing in “Oedipus” and, some may argue, “Hamlet.” But in Song of Solomon, we see a lot more of it. We see it first between Ruth and Macon Jr. (from which the name Milkman was derived), then through the perspective of Macon, we see it between Ruth and the doctor and we also see the same relationship sparking between two cousins: Milkman and Hagar.
Right off the bat, I noticed a puzzling connection between this play of incest and the title of the book. Song of Solomon is a chapter of the Bible that in some ways makes us question Morrison’s decision to mingle these two dichotomies. But at the same time, it’s interesting to note that Song of Solomon, arguably, is strangely the odd chapter of the Old Testament that deals with ideas other than God, wisdom or law. Instead, Song of Solomon celebrates sexual love. The entire chapter is dedicated towards describing two lovers yearning for each other and rejoicing in sexual intimacy. Hm, so where exactly is Morrison going with this?
Obviously we see still have yet to understand this quizzical relationship, but I definitely agree with Natalie and Cassie that this strange sexual intimacy may also stand as a more symbolic idea of misunderstanding and power struggles, as explained above. I’m excited to see where the next couple chapters will take us!
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Post by Lauren on Apr 25, 2014 5:05:27 GMT
I think we can all agree that incest is gross, so when I read the first lines saying that Macon had a relationship with Hagard I was a little confused and disturbed. It seems so natural to him to be sleeping with his cousin (once removed?), yet the idea of his mom and grandfather having a relationship completely freaked him out. This juxtaposition of the ideas of natural and unnatural love lead me to think this is definitely something Morrison's going to explore more. Since the book in the Bible "Song of Solomon" is very sexual it makes sense that a book by the same title would have strong themes and opinions on love. I'm excited to see what comes of these and other relationships, considering the only strong loving relationship explored so far is that between Ruth and her father.
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Post by coreybrown on Apr 25, 2014 5:34:49 GMT
I'm just gonna input some quotes here and maybe dance a bit with some ideas presented earlier. I'm not disagreeing that many of the relationships seem to be more about power than sexual attraction, but I'd like to draw attention to the passage where Macon III (hereon referred to as Milkman) first sees/meets Hagar. "Milkman jumped up, knocking his chair backward, and trotted after Hagar. She was, it seemed to him, as pretty a girl as he'd ever seen...He seemed to be floating. More alive than he'd ever been, and floating" (45). And again when he here's Hagar sing. "Milkman could hardly breathe. Hagar's voice scooped up what little pieces of heart he had left to call his own. When he thought he was going to faint from the weight of what he was feeling, he risked a glance at his friend and saw the setting sun gilding Guitar's eyes, putting into shadow a slow smile of recognition" (49). Perhaps their relationship becomes more about power later, but I think this initial reaction clearly shows some kind of affection and love, if not sexual attraction. He just sounds like a typical young boy falling head over heels for someone, perhaps irrationally.
Now to move to the more touchy issue: incest. I'd just like to draw attention to this quote as I think it complicated the Hagar-Milkman relationship even more.
"That ain't her brother, Mama. They cousins." The older woman [Reba] spoke.
"Same thing."
"No it ain't. Is it, baby?"
"No," said Hagar. "It's different."
...Reba looked at the ceiling. "A brother is a brother if you both got the same mother or if you both -"
Pilate interrupted her. "I mean what's the difference in the way you act toward 'em? Don't you have to act the same way to both?"
"That's not the point, Mama...Yes, Mama. You treat them both the same."
"Then why they got two words for it 'stead of one, if they ain't no difference?" (44)
Not that this really changes the nature of their relationship, but perhaps the way it's viewed. In Cyrano de Bergerac, Cyrano and Roxane were cousins, but we kind of let it slide (and didn't really want to think about it) when we thought of their relationship. Perhaps, though, in this case the familial relationship is the same regardless of how direct it might be. I'm not entirely sure what that means for the novel or the characters, but Pilate's view on relationships is definitely worth noting as we continue to explore these strange incestuous relationships.
Also, just wanted to say that I was thinking the same thing as you, Cassie, with regards to ownership and Macon's focus on ownership and it's direct correlation to power in his point of view and how that's entirely different than in July's People. There's also that bit in Song of Solomon where the Macon family is driving around in their car (The Packard), dubbed Macon Dead's Hearse, and I can't help but be reminded, especially when Macon's perspectives revolve around ownership, of July's People and the Bakkie.
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Post by patricktbutenhoff on Apr 25, 2014 15:16:19 GMT
The relationships between Ruth and her father and her son seem to reflect pretty heavily on her, but I don't think that Milkman's relationship with Hagar is such a big deal. Ruth's relationship with men is, to say the least, unusual. Her intimacy with the Doctor, which later spreads into necrophilia, is frankly horrifying. (That said, this all does come from Macon, and he may or may not be entirely trustworthy. The story does line up with Ruth's later interactions with Milkman as well as Macon's reaction to a seemingly innocuous comment, however.) I think I have to agree with Natalie that this relationship is largely based on power dynamics. We've already seen that the Doctor is a control freak with very little trust for Macon, and it makes some sense that if he's even unwilling to let his daughter leave his house, he might want control over her sex life as well. Perhaps this is related to the reason that Ruth acts interestingly regarding Milkman. She's never had a "normal" interaction with men, seeing as her father's relationship with her is largely carnal and her marriage is marred by abuse as well as the Doctor's lingering influence. Maybe Milkman's the only male in Ruth's life that she can really exert any control over, and to that extent, she wanted to keep him as close to her as possible for as long as possible. Regardless of the causes, though, the incest in Ruth's life is a huge part of her character.
Milkman, however, is not defined by his relationship with Hagar. Compared to his early interactions with his mother, which earn him a cruel nickname that he may never be able to shake, being in a relationship with Hagar is almost a relief for the reader. I see Hagar not so much as Milkman's cousin, however, as the freedom he was never allowed in his own home. Observe the scene when he first goes to the dreaded Pilate's house: "Her powerful contralto, Reba's piercing soprano in counterpoint, and the soft voice of the girl, Hagar, who must be about ten or eleven now, pulled him like a carpet tack under the influence of a magnet" (29). Pilate's family is a family in harmony. Unlike Macon's family, the women in Pilate's home actually get along. The women also live more casually than Milkman does: "...she and her daughters ate like children. Whatever they had a taste for. No meal was ever planned or balanced or served. Nor was there any gathering at the table. Pilate might bake hot bread and each one of them would eat it with butter whenever she felt like it" (29). This sort of leniency is something Milkman severely lacks from his own life. Consider the character of Macon Dead: abusive, straight-laced, brutally honest, as harsh on his tenants as he is on his family. Milkman desperately needs some relief from this suffocating climate, and he finds it in the thrillingly forbidden house of Pilate and her daughters. Hagar emphasizes the traits that Milkman wishes he has in his own life; of course he's going to be attracted to her. Since Pilate's family is so distanced from Macon's, I don't see Milkman and Hagar's relationship as incestuous, especially when compared to the interactions Ruth has in her life.
A Biblical note, since Biblical naming features heavily in Song of Solomon: Song of Solomon, also known as Song of Songs, is an unusual, overly sexual book in the Old Testament that doesn't seem to fit into the Bible at all. It's a series of interactions between two lovers, and it has some of the awkwardly sexual atmosphere that we see in Morrison's novel. Also, the Biblical character of Hagar is the slave of Sarah and Abraham, by whom Abraham fathers a son, Ishmael. Once Sarah gives birth to Isaac, she becomes jealous of Hagar and forces Abraham to cast her and Ishmael out. Ishmael later goes on to be an extremely important figure in the Islamic faith. Interestingly, Hagar is never mentioned by name in the Qur'an and only alluded to, even though she is a major figure in Islam.
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Post by mattagritelley on Apr 29, 2014 2:47:30 GMT
Personally, I find the dynamic between Hagar and Milkman to be uniquely fascinating. In particular, Morrison explores the sexual relationship between the two characters through Pilate's clever and thoughtful introduction of one to the other:
"Hagar.' Pilate looked around the room. "This here's your brother, Milkman."…
"That ain't her brother, Mama. They cousins." The older woman spoke.
"Same thing."
"No it ain't. Is it, baby?"
"No," said Hagar. "It's different."…
"Well, what is the difference, Reba? You know so much."
Reba looked at the ceiling. "A brother is a brother if you both got the same mother or if you both--"
Pilate interrupted her. "I mean what's the difference in the way you act toward 'em? Don't you have to act the same way to both?" (Morrison 43-44).
Furthering Patrick's reference to the biblical story, "Song of Solomon," the female lover is specifically referred to as both the bride of the male and as his sister. It is understood that she is not literally his sister by blood, but is rather referenced as such to imply a symbolic equality between the two lovers. Morrison is clearly alluding to this aspect of the biblical story, after which she names the novel after, in the quote above. By introducing Milkman as Hagar's brother, Pilate sets the stage for the two's relationship and establishes an early benchmark for each's level of maturity. She implies to the two that, although they may be of different social classes and of different genders, they should view each other as brother and sister, and thus as equals. Hagar's inability to grasp this complex issue illustrates that she is too young to understand the concept of equality and fraternity. This perhaps foreshadows the development of a strong bond between the two as they mature, or conversely the genesis of an incongruous relationship, as one or neither is able to fully understand the concept of unity and togetherness. I'm excited to see how this dynamic plays out as the two young characters grow, both physically and emotionally.
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alice
New Member
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Post by alice on Apr 29, 2014 4:11:10 GMT
I thought it work sort of a way to show a deeper connection. Im not suggesting this is how you should bond with your family but I do think it shows really how close and how intimate they are wth their family. I was also going to talk about the quote Matt referred to "That ain't her brother, Mama. They cousins" to which Pilate argues that if they're family, the title doesn't matter and you treat them all the same. I saw this quote as a working representation of their view of close knit family, even though they're not at all close knit. They do, however, retain this incestuous tradition though generations which...is an interesting thing to pass on to your children. Milkman didn't seem to quite immediately fall for a family member though which makes me think it would be VERY internalized. He does seem to be highly uncomfortable with his father telling him of his father's incestuous past though.
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Post by hannahlewman on Apr 29, 2014 4:19:53 GMT
In a lot of ways, this is a story about taking things too far. If everything is good in moderation, as the old saying goes, this novel proves that everything turns horrid in extremes. Sickness in the superlative.
Even values that are generally regarded as wonderful turn dark when brought to the extreme. Take for example, the ideas of love and family. Everyone appreciates the concepts of love and family; they are things that everyone strives to achieve. Yet this story shows how even the good can turn bad without moderation. In describing Hagar's love for Milkman, Morrison writes, "In fact her maturity and blood kinship converted her passion to fever, so it was more affliction than affection." This shows how easily positive things like passion and affection can turn to obsessive, negative traits.
Incestuous love is just one place where we see the horrible nature of extremes play out. For example, the desire to be protective and defensive turns into a patriarchal power struggle between Macon and Milkman, and the desire for equality creates some sort of (potentially, we don't know yet) horrible secret that Guitar is keeping. Basically everything that people strive for or stand for becomes such an obsession and a focus that it turns evil and horrible. Not even love is safe from becoming bastardized by the greedy and compulsive nature of humans. This novel shows the dangers of taking everything to the extreme.
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Post by allegra on Apr 29, 2014 4:55:29 GMT
Though I agree with Hannah in many ways, I would also say this novel is about suppression- suppression of thoughts and of actions, and specifically the suppression of love (as cheesy as that sounds). Ruth suppresses herself around Macon and her neighbors, she can only bring out all of these suppressed feelings when she's alone or with her son or with someone who doesn't understand. What I love about this book in particular is the way the language describes the intense loneliness that seems to prevail throughout Not Doctor street. It's a little like a Wes Anderson movie in which you feel slightly off, but the way the characters act and present themselves contrast the actuality of the situation. It's an interesting an unnerving situation and it resonates in a way that is a little off-center. The suppression is put forward in a way in which the readers feel like they're also being suppressed.
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Post by sammywong on Apr 29, 2014 5:59:12 GMT
I found it interesting that these incestuous relationships seem to stem not from Love (capital "L") but from a false sense of love and a lack of boundaries. Explaining why she would visit the cemetery and lay with her dead father, Ruth explains that the doctor proved to be the only one who loved her, who cared whether she lived or not. Off the bat, Ruth misunderstands and cannot distinguish between the love relationship of parent to child and partner to partner. She nurses Milkman for far too long because it gives her great comfort/peace to have a male (I guess no matter how young) want her, need her, and be with her.
Explaining why Ruth set out to kill Hagar:
"Her passions were narrow but deep. Long deprived of sex, long dependent on self manipulation, she saw her son's imminent death as the annihilation of the last occasion she had been made love to" (134.)
It seems that Ruth is really out to find someone to coddle her and to coddle in return. Not being able to with her husband, Ruth turns to other male figures in her life. This is where she begins to portray her lack of boundaries as she doesn't acknowledge who she turns to is her son and father.
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Post by jessicapollard on Apr 30, 2014 17:10:37 GMT
It seems to me that the incestuous relationships in the Dead family really illustrate the confusion between right, wrong and that big gray area in which most of humanity resides. No central character can really seem to pin down what is OK and what is not OK, for instance Macon recognizes that incest is bad. To express this, however, Macon resorts to physical abuse. Milkman also recognizes that the relationship between Ruth and the Doctor was not normal, but continues his own incestuous relationship as though it is not one.It's interesting that no character appears concerned with defining 'wrong' and 'right', and I'm wondering where the lack of concern comes from.
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Post by adamgrace on Jun 4, 2014 1:24:05 GMT
I'd have to agree with Jessie that a lot of the incestuous activities stem from the Dead family's disconnect from the 'norm'. Incest, unlike today, was not an uncommon thing back in the day (I'm talking waaaaay back in the day). George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire contains plenty of incest, and that series is mainly based on actual history. Although ASOIAF is a fundamentally different beast than SOS, there are similarities in the familial relationships. Milkman and Ruth are just as confused as, say, Jaime and Cersei from ASOIAF. They both come from a less than stellar upbringing and they're both similarly confused about morals and who they are within their family.
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