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Post by elizabethmeyer on Jun 29, 2013 20:46:09 GMT
I'm not very far into the book, but I've noticed that Grendel appears to be slightly insane, and I wanted to explore that before reading further. For instance, most of Grendel's actions in even the first chapter indicate his insanity: lashing out at trees before apologizing (pg 6 in my copy), talking to his shadow (pg 8), and tempting fate when he shouts at the dark chasms "Seize me!", which is soon followed by "Missed me!" (pg 10). All of that (and some of his actions from the next two chapters as well) had me thinking that Grendel must be bonkers. But is Grendel really insane? He is aware of his madness ("I move through the darkness, burning with murderous lust, my brains raging at the sickness I can observe in myself as objectively as might a mind ten centuries away" [pg 11].), and that awareness makes him seem slightly more sane. But, looking through the next three chapters, there are so many examples and counterexamples to Grendel's insanity that I can't decide whether he's crazy or not. And that's only a small portion of the book. Maybe I'm not really getting at anything here (after all, I'm only to chapter 3), so please excuse me if this question is answered simply by reading further. So, I suppose my question is: Do you think that Grendel is insane (and if so, why?) or do you think that Grendel is sane (and if so, why?).
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Post by kevinle on Jul 2, 2013 4:56:32 GMT
I think it depends how you define sane and insane. We may think he's insane for acting so belligerently, eating almost every human in sight. Yet, on the other hand, he is completely aware of his actions and has control over himself. For example (sorry if to anyone who hasn't gotten here), when Unferth visits Grendel's cave, Grendel's first thought is to slay Unferth. However, Grendel decides to spare Unferth and send him back to his meadhall/kingdom/place-of-living. Absolutely, he is crazy and abnormal. But everybody is abnormal to an extent for certain reasons... I'd say it all comes down to perspective and opinion.
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Post by Lacey Doby on Jul 2, 2013 21:30:57 GMT
I've been pondering this question since I first began reading. Grendel claims that he is insane, and there is plenty of evidence to prove it (the random impulse moves he often has), but, as the story goes on, I think it becomes clear that he is also quite rational and logical. I think, deep down, he is a rational, human-like creature, but he has convinced himself that he is insane to deal with his bizarre situation. I dunno. I'm kind of hoping he will have some great epiphany at the end where all will be revealed.
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Post by sheridanf on Jul 11, 2013 4:11:41 GMT
I'm not sure if Grendel could be considered insane, but he certainly has some insane-like qualities. I'd like to point out, however, that his flashbacks of him as a child paint a picture of a normal and sane little monster. He doesn't seem to start lashing out and talking to inanimate/ intangible objects until faced with the knowledge of his own power- the knowledge that he has the ability to destroy the nearby men without much successful retaliation. I suppose then that Grendel's insane tendencies begin to evolve as the power gets to his head. But this isn't the only time extreme power led to evil, and possibly insane, tendencies. I'm sure most of you have heard about the Stanford prison experiment, where in 1971 a group of college students were placed in a prison-like situation, and those given the position of prison guard, or the position of power, began abusing their power, going so far as to torture the students playing the prisoners. Grendel is just like one of these prison guards and the humans the powerless prisoners. I don't believe the prison guards started yelling at darkness and slashing at trees like Grendel does, but the experiment messed the students up psychologically. Perhaps Grendel's supposed "insanity" is just his mind responding to the psychological damage from having unlimited power. So I think the answer to the question is no, Grendel's not insane. He's just responding to his unchecked power. This just shows what power can do to a person- or a monster.
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Post by juliamoreland on Aug 11, 2013 22:39:14 GMT
I agree with Sheridan, power is an extremely strong force on the psyche. Looking at the debate of Grendel’s insanity or sanity, I think the style of the novel makes me think that he is insane. The alternations between first and third person, mixture of flashbacks with strange introductions, and rhymes that Grendel mutters to himself paint him as insane. For example, Gardner writes, “The monster laughs” (94), and before that Grendel thinks, “Grendel, has it occurred to you my dear that you are crazy?” (92). Maybe it is just me, but I really cant see any sane person whispering that to himself. Those lines give me chills and make me scared of this insane fictional character.
Grendel’s insanity does seem to increase as the novel continues on, and I agree that the power has a large role in the transformation. The way that Grendel obsesses over the town, chooses victims, makes lists, and yet admires certain people (shaper) remind me of a psychopath. Think about it, he really is one. Grendel is extremely intelligent and capable of logic, but also obsessive over gruesome manipulation and murder. Especially the last line of the novel makes me think that he has lost it. Calling Grendel insane does not mean he is not intelligent or even somewhat human, but instead that he has psychopathic tendencies that I consider to make him insane.
Another addition to Grendel’s insanity is his paranoia. Grendel is constantly talking about the many sets of eyes burning through him and into him. I wonder if he sees the world as watching his every move, or if he is proud of his manipulative plots and doesn’t want others to see them. Grendel’s plots for murder or scare tactics all revolve around keeping the town afraid and under his control. This again relates back to the insanity revolving around power and fear that Grendel enjoys.
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Post by haleyjensen on Aug 19, 2013 7:10:12 GMT
Looking at everyone's comments, I think there is a general consensus that whether or not people consider Grendel sane or insane, there is definitely something psychologically "off" about him. I've tended to be in the crowd that thinks Grendel is insane, mainly because I asked myself this question: If Grendel isn't insane, then who is? However, Kevin made a very good point when he said that whether or not you classify Grendel as insane depends on the definition you use. So, I looked up the Webster's definition of insane and included it below.
Insane: afflicted with a mental illness severe enough to make one incapable of leading a normal life; highly reckless or foolish
In addition, I looked up the definitions of reckless and foolish.
Reckless: wildly careless; indifferent to danger
Foolish: silly, ridiculous; lacking in good sense, prudence, or judgment
After looking at these definitions, I realized that we can't come to an accurate conclusion on whether or not Grendel is insane. There are only two monsters in Gardner's story, and one of them is Grendel, so readers don't know what a normal life is like for a monster. And by the grace of God, we live in a part of the world where people eating other people is not considered "normal", so we can't tell whether or not Grendel's strange life is actually considered strange. We also don't know what would classify a monster as reckless or foolish. Is eating people considered indifferent to danger or lacking judgment for a monster? Are loneliness and a lack of self control considered signs of a mental illness for Grendel? At the end of the day, I believe the answer to these questions lie in Gardner's imagination. Because he created the fictional world Grendel lives in, he sets the standards for normalcy and insanity in the lives of monsters. I would be interested to ask Gardner whether or not he thinks Grendel is insane, and why. Gardner created a story in which there are certain elements that just can't be compared in the world to which we're accustomed.
Whether or not Grendel is insane is a great question, and there are strong arguments on both sides, despite the fact that we don't have access to Gardner's imagination. I'd be interested to compare Grendel to a similar fictional character in regards to insanity and see how he stacks up.
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Post by anaritter on Aug 24, 2013 23:25:17 GMT
I don't think that Grendel is insane, because true insanity indicates some kind of debilitating mental illness and a total distach from reality. The fact that Grendel claims, over and over, that he must be insane shows that he is in touch with what is real, normal, and perceived of him. He is obviously experiencing some sort of mental turmoil, but we all do as humans when we experience inner conflict or an identity crisis. Grendel is trying to figure out who he is, and whether he fits the mold as animal or human. Like every teenager, he is experimenting with several different identities so that he can find out who he is. While this may make him seem inconsistent, it does not make him insane.
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Post by mitralebuhn on Aug 29, 2013 19:04:13 GMT
I don't even think insanity is the issue. Ana mentioned teenagers, and I believe Grendel appears insane because he is unpredictable and child-like. I noticed Grendel often calls people crazy, something my 5 and 6 year old cousins do (although they aren't monsters  ). But then he also calls himself crazy, which is confusing and contradicting and what causes him to appear insane. Grendel might not even know what crazy is because, as Kevin mentioned, everyone has varying degrees of crazy in them. But, perhaps Grendel is trying to connect himself with others and draw similarities between himself and humans by comparing both him and humans to craziness. Yet, due to the way he was raised as well as his general nature he feels he guilty over his seeking this connection. But these are just my inferences. Another of his child-like qualities is using words he doesn't understand. He expresses this while he throws one of his fits, "I slammed the earth with such force that a seam split open twelve feet long. 'Bastards!' I roared. 'Sons of bitches! Fuckers!' Words I'd picked up from men in their rages. I wasn't even sure what they mean, though I had an idea" (52). This is something I've noticed children do all the time. They pick up words they hear and use them without knowing what they are saying. The only reason I can imagine Gardner giving Grendel this characteristic is to make Grendel appear child-like. "Insane" is such a relative term: how do we even define insanity? Is it as simple as being out of the ordinary or must it be something scientific like a chemical imbalance in the brain? But in Grendel's case, I'd consider him more of a child than insane. |
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Post by gracepark on Sept 2, 2013 3:44:08 GMT
Insane, according to dictionary.com, also refers to being utterly senseless, foolish, or irrational.
Insanity would be one way to describe Grendel’s behaviors. But I think it only applies to a certain extend. Yes as mentioned before, the line between insane and sane is blurry because everyone’s opinions are different. But I feel like those two are too extreme to use to categorize Grendel. Of course he does display insane-like characteristics like biting off human’s heads or slowly killing that poor mountain goat. Yet I’d say he’s more brainwashed by his theories than just insane. He’s not really doing all these insane-like things without any logic or reasoning behind it (which I realize is debatable). I’m definitely not saying that his theories are reasonable or in any way moralistic, but I do think Grendel is acting with some sense. In other words, he’s not completely insane.
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). But then he also calls himself crazy, which is confusing and contradicting and what causes him to appear insane. Grendel might not even know what crazy is because, as Kevin mentioned, everyone has varying degrees of crazy in them. But, perhaps Grendel is trying to connect himself with others and draw similarities between himself and humans by comparing both him and humans to craziness. Yet, due to the way he was raised as well as his general nature he feels he guilty over his seeking this connection. But these are just my inferences.