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Post by davidqin on Nov 20, 2013 4:43:41 GMT
I think tragedy leaps out from the vast expanse of bad because it is somehow personally relatable. I've seen many previous posts talk about death and how that is the ultimate expression of tragedy as opposed to the mundane variety of badness. I feel a little hesitant to say death is tragedy and tragedy is death because there are many nuances that push us to define an event as one or the other. Still, death is a very relatable experience for all of us, as we will witness it and also experience it ourselves. Therefore, tragedy seems to be an exploration of our mortality as humans. However, could other events (not involving death) also be considered tragedy? A natural disaster could be considered a tragedy not only because of the death it causes, but also because of the great suffering it inflicts on the living. We don't classify this suffering as the garden-variety of bad, though. We call it tragedy because it is connected with death, and because it has the potential to profoundly change someone's existence (assuming that we think we can shrug off the everyday variety of badness). Therefore, I think for something bad to become tragic requires a personal connection, such as knowledge how such an event can impact you or being directly impacted by it. Moreover, it has to produce some profound reaction in the individual, such as a period of mourning or the feeling of being in a disaster zone. Ordinary episodes of badness, such as spilling soda or forgetting your keys, for example, do not provoke the same reaction as a greater event such as death, injury, or some emotional trauma.
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Post by clairem on Nov 20, 2013 5:20:05 GMT
The tipping point, for me, that elevates a bad event to a tragic one is the element of unexpectedness. Whether it is a death, a car accident, etc., the most important factor to consider it a tragedy is whether it came as a surprise. My Opa, Grandpa in German, had Alzheimer's Disease for 6 years and was on a steady road towards his death. Since the entire family saw his death coming from years in advance they had time to come to terms with his passing and thus the day that he actually died was merely a crappy day, not a tragedy. This same sort of timeline occurred with my Grandpa's passing as he had been experiencing hospitalizing health issues for numerous years before his final stretch of hospice care. I do not view either of these deaths as tragedies because I saw them coming, the days of their deaths are merely extremely unhappy points on the chronological timeline of their last few years but not unexpected tragedies. A true tragedy is an event that occurs suddenly and is damaging to those involved and those close to the victims. These are tragedies because they occur so quickly and leave us little to no time to make sense of them in our minds and our hearts. Bad days and long-term crappy events give humans more time to find reasons for the events or are so menial that they don't need much time to comprehend. Overall, tragedies are unexpected events that leave us with more questions than answers whereas any mere bad days are menial or allow us time to understand.
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Post by juliamoreland on Nov 20, 2013 5:38:29 GMT
I do not think that death is the key to tragedy, although, for certain individuals it may be the worst. Tragedy is so personal and individually defined that trying to find a general definition seems hopeless. From the other posts, it seems that many people connect tragedy with individuals, but could it be an action? I personally do not define anything in my life as tragic. This term seems to be reserved for the extremes, the polar ends of hopelessness. Also, I tend to associate tragedy with dramatics, perhaps that is the theatre half of my knowledge. The element of surprise, or unexpectedness does have a role in tragedy. When you are emotionally vulnerable without even knowing it, that could lead to an emotionally scarring tragedy. So I am not denying that tragedy exists, but I tend not to refer to anything in my life as such. Somewhere deep down it feels as though this is all a trap set up by Mr. Parris. He knows that looking back on this definition in a month will force me to realize my naïve self. The converstation about self started out the exact same way…
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Post by rubyking on Nov 20, 2013 5:47:06 GMT
This is a tough one for me to answer, and I want to ask why we have to label certain events as either worth our time or not, based on sadness. But based off of what I've seen, one form of tragedy, to me, is when people accept their defeat quietly, not making a large deal of it. In class last time we touched on My Best Friend's Wedding just a bit, and easily the most tragic part is when Julia Roberts is making a speech at her friend's wedding (the guy she's also in love with, as I'm guessing not everyone has seen this)and gives her and her best friend's song, "The Way You Look Tonight," to the newlyweds as their own song. It sounds really cheesy, but the way she does it with such grace, no one would know that she was dying inside. Another comes from one of my all time favorite books, Edith Wharton's "The Age Of Innocence." Newland is in a position to where he can leave his wife and be happy with the woman he really loves, but he lets that happiness go to remain by his wife, without question, without fuss. Tragedy is everywhere, really, what makes it more tragic is how people deal with it. I love that people are bringing up Romeo and Juliet, but I'm really surprised no one has mentioned Mercutio! I don't have specific textual evidence at hand right now (I really need to read this again)but I saw him as absolutely one of the most tragic characters. I sensed a lot of hidden pain under all of those jests (or maybe I'm just making things up)He even jokes at the time of his own death. Tragedy for me, is just really putting up a convincing front.
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Post by elizabethmeyer on Nov 20, 2013 5:48:10 GMT
Like many people have already said, I also think tragedy is deeply mired in death. When I think of the word "tragedy" I immediately think of Shakespeare's tragedies. In all of them, many if not most of the characters end up dying by the end of the play. Just speaking of the ones I've actually seen (Macbeth, Romeo and Juliet, Coriolanus, Julius Caesar and Hamlet) each "tragedy" begins with some conflict which starts the killing, and then escalates into all the characters either killing each other or otherwise being affected by all the killing. Prime example: Macbeth. How many characters are even still alive at the end? Not many, that I remember. Therefore, I also agree with all those that have noted that "tragedy" has something to do with the number of people involved. I believe that for something to be categorized as a "tragedy" it has to be truly awful - something that is not only thoroughly unfortunate but also something that affects lots of people. Of course that's still rather vague. I guess a tragedy would be something that would be widely regarded as a terribly sad catastrophe.
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Post by Marshall on Nov 20, 2013 6:06:52 GMT
Who knows? In my mind I'm conceptualizing it as a combination of the frequency and degree of a negative event. There are things we classify as negative but happen quite often, which could diminish how much we value them. If degree and frequency were each an axis, tragedy would be the most negative events that happen least often.
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Post by allegra on Nov 20, 2013 6:11:09 GMT
Tragedies stand out as rarities in the lives of most people. Bad things, however, are much more common in life. It is much more passive of a person to call an occurrence “bad” and the label ends up sounding flippant and easily brushed off. It is easy for a person to call their day bad and to have slight pseudo-remorse come their way than it is for a person to truly feel something is tragic. Tragedies call for a much more energetic form of sympathy; people must convince the post-tragedy survivor that they are truly remorseful. Because the latter takes much more energy to convey, people will often stay with “bad” things. Not often is something tragic, and when it is it means much more of an energy input for all people involved. Now, I realize this may sound bad but think of the recent tragedy in the Philippines. This was indeed a tragedy and called for much more energy. The energy went to support those facing challenges in their destruction. It wasn’t “bad” but instead was tragic and thus required more energy from other people in order to get through it.
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Post by mitralebuhn on Nov 20, 2013 6:16:36 GMT
I think events evolve to the level of "tragic" when they become life-threatening or unwelcomingly life-altering, and should involve the suffering of more people that simply yourself. For example, if you burn your toast, its not a very serious issue and only really affects you, the individual who wanted the toast. But, if you burn the whole neighborhood down, that could be considered "tragic", now that a number of innocent people, besides yourself, are going to struggle without a home and they did not wish for this dramatic and difficult change. There are also varying degrees of tragedy. Personally, I think that suffering from issues regarding health and happiness (this may include love) that are severe are among the most tragic. For a life to be compromised in this way strongly degrades the quality of life for the sufferer, and I think all we want is a a meaningful life, and for that to become unattainable, due to some remarkable hinderance, is truly sad.
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joelk
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Posts: 36
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Post by joelk on Nov 20, 2013 6:17:46 GMT
A lot has been said about tragedy already. I have nothing to add.
Just kidding. I have way too much to add.
But first let’s look at what has already been said. I think the most common threads of this, well, thread are the ideas that tragedy is: something that was preventable, something lost forever, death/inability to ignore mortality, unexpectedness, and dependent upon individual perspective. In evaluating these tragedies, let’s look at the common examples we’ve cited that seem to be accepted tragedies: Romeo and Juliet, the Sandy Hook shooting, the Typhoon in the Philippines/general natural disasters, deaths (with various qualifiers attached), and car accidents/misfortune befalling a close friend/family member.
Initially, I like the idea that a tragedy is seen as more “tragic” than a mundanely bad event because it could have been prevented. But if we take on this definition, natural disasters are not tragedies. And yet that feels wrong. How could you argue that these hugely detrimental storms and tsunamis of recent years are not tragedies? We’ll come back to this in a little while.
Now let’s look at the idea of tragedy in regards to death or some huge physical harm. As others have discussed, this definition limits tragedies to the physical unless you include the “death” of a self or the loss of sanity. But even with that broader definition, the line between “bad” and “tragic” remains hazy. If you die, it’s tragic. A paper cut is not. If you fall off of a hiking trail and sprain an ankle, is it tragic? What if you broke both legs? Essentially, unless there is some way of quantifying physical, emotional, and psychological harm, that definition is going to be ambiguous.
That brings us to eternal loss. Yet even that isn’t a hard-line definition. Eternal loss of life is undeniably tragic. So is eternal loss of an opportunity, like, as Sheridan brought up, the “loss” of the man’s opportunity to live his life “alive” and with a full self. This definition, though, means that the eternal loss of, say, 20/20 vision, or the eternal loss of a pet fish, is tragic. To avoid this, you could say that it must be the eternal loss of something you were attached to, but how do you determine attachment?
It is this line of reasoning—the question of how to determine a personal emotion like attachment—that leads to my definition of tragedy. How do we define attachment? The easiest way might be to think about losing something. Would you be sad, or would it bring you to tears? Which just brings us back to: is it bad, or tragic?
This personal component leads to the concept of defining tragedy based on individual perspective, as a few have already brought up. I agree that there is a personal aspect, but I would attach even more specificity to this.
Take a post-modern viewpoint (I’m a pomo critic) suggesting that language is variable (the word tragic certainly seems to be) and thus that the use of language to define truth is really just an attempt to “force” your truth—your language/way of thinking about something—onto someone else. (That’s a little oversimplified, but this is already too long.) But what would the word “tragedy” try to force you to think? It’s already accepted that any tragedy is mundanely bad and more, so it’s not trying to convince you of the general negativity of something.
Answering this question leads to my definition of tragedy. “Tragedy,” in my opinion, could be an attempt to forcedly elicit sympathy for misfortune. It doesn’t have to come with malicious intent, but when we call hurricanes a tragedy, we want the listener to feel sympathy for the victims. And the reason we would use tragedy to try and elicit sympathy is…if tragedy is what we personally call anything that actually elicits sympathy.
In turn, that gives us the specificity to attach to the concept of “individual perspective.” Something mundanely bad is something you acknowledge as bad and try and feel a bit of regret or anger or a tiny bit of sorrow, and then move on with your life. This sorrow or anger is an action we undertake if we understand the “bad” in something. Let’s say your pet fish died. It’s not a tragedy if you only feel bad because, well, death, and it’s sorta sad to see it die, but it’s not as if you ever personally connected with that fish. Conversely, a tragedy is something that elicits emotion as reaction. You hear about the Sandy Hook shooting and instinctively feel sad. You hear about a loved one’s sudden death and instinctively start crying. There is no separation between the event and the emotion.
(The question of attachment is determined the same way. If you lost something, would you realize you should act sadly because you lost or misplaced it, or would you react sadly without even considering the concept of loss, just that you no longer have something and miss it dearly? The reaction is the true attachment, I believe.)
So when we say a hurricane is tragic, what do we mean? Is it? This varies based on this personal definition. If you lived on the New Jersey coastline during Hurricane Sandy, the storm damage itself makes you feel terrible. But if you lived on the West Coast and you say it’s tragic, you either mean that a) it’s tragic, as in, you want other people to agree and feel sad and donate money to relief efforts (which is in no way a bad result even if it feels a little manipulative) or b) you know someone on the coast, or have seen the story so well told through the media that you actually feel sorrow, as an emotional reaction. Sorrow as a reaction is sadness naturally occurring, whereas sorrow as an action is sadness that you feel only because you think you should (because it’s culturally accepted, because the media is telling you to feel sad*, or because you anticipated an event would be sad even before it happened, etc). You “act” the sorrow or consciously choose to feel sad, whereas “reacting” with sorrow is an unconscious response. *I don't mean that you shouldn't feel sorrow for those in the Philippines just because you only see the tragedy secondhand. I'm simply talking about the difference between the media saying "x number of people have died, let's feel bad" "Okay, yeah, I can make myself feel bad" and you finally grasping the number of deaths or seeing the destruction, which would then elicit sorrow as a reaction.
Julia posted this next part while I was still writing this post, but the other definitions of tragedy—the prevention ability, the element of surprise, the eternal loss—all tie into things that can cause us to react unconsciously and uncontrollably with real emotion. The magnitude of each of these factors, and the effect it has on us, varies a bit through personal experience. But as a general rule, each factor alone could elevate bad to tragedy.
Overall, what’s the difference between “bad” and “tragedy?” Whether the emotional sorrow you feel is an unconscious choice or a conscious response (to some indicator or reason that you should feel sad). Many factors can influence this, but it will come down to your personal perspective. After all, if someone says something is tragic, how will you know if it’s because he thinks you should feel sad/he should feel sad, or because he actually feels sorrow?
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Post by emwolfram on Nov 20, 2013 6:33:29 GMT
Oh boy so many things make something "elevated" to tragedy. For example a man is shot and killed:
"He was a single father of three beautiful children"
"He was on the way to his sick mothers hospital bed"
"It was his wedding day"
"He had just turned 19."
"He had just turned 7"
"He was one cheese slice away from breaking the world record for most cheese slices eaten in 20 minutes"
"He wouldn't have been in the line of fire if his wife hadn't asked him to pick up some milk"
"He was destined to cure cancer"
"He had jumped in front of the woman he loved to save her life"
"He had just gotten an eye transplant and was about to fulfill his dream of becoming a pilot."
Tragedy is in the details. Simple sadness occurs every day but we are drawn to the situations that make our hearts hurt. Often there is irony or anguish interweaved in the narrative. There are more ways to lose one's life that just dying. Therefore, I do not believe that dying is necessary in the formation of tragedy, however, it does often add to the tragic nature of the situation if a death occurs. A loss of love can be a tragedy, and a loss of self can also be a tragedy. Loss is the biggest contribution to tragedy and it usually is a permeant or a grave one. Even surviving can be a tragedy depending on the circumstances. Since we all feel differently it is almost impossible to determine what is and is not tragic. Yet when we feel it we know.
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Post by amysohlberg on Nov 20, 2013 6:36:03 GMT
Tragedy occurs when something is lost that can't be regained. When somebody ruins their new designer purse, it isn't a "tragedy" because they can just buy a new one. When somebody loses a limb or a friend we call it tragedy because we know they can't get it back. For example, a distant family friend was diagnosed with schizophrenia a few months ago and recently took his own life. This is a terrible tragedy because his condition and his actions can never be taken back; they will affect his family for the rest of their lives. Tragedies are permanent damage. It's like everybody starts at 100 points when they are conceived, and every tragedy is a subtraction from that 100 points until you end up at 0 when you die. I think tragedies are reality's way of saying, "your time here is going fast, and it's not going to last forever". Tragedies force us to consider what's important and usually push people to search for meaning in their lives. It's almost like we accept sad things as a part of daily life, but tragedies are small moments when death intersects with life, in ways that are both small and big.
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Post by gracepark on Nov 20, 2013 6:49:24 GMT
Tragedy is in a completely different level from the “just-everyday-sad or crappy” moments in life. It’s in an entirely different dimension. While sadness is more so associated with a superficial acknowledgement, tragedy involves each and every one of our emotions as human beings.
Arguably one of our greatest tragedies is the illusion of eternity. Humans have this false perception that death is something faaaar away. Therefore when we’re faced the realities of present day or, more often through the events of history, we’re left with this raw emotion of fear and nakedness. The lifelong building blocks that characterized a belief in a long, happy life just cracked or maybe are well on its way towards tumbling down.
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amychen
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“But the wild things cried, “Oh please don’t go—we’ll eat you up—we love you so!”
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Post by amychen on Nov 20, 2013 6:55:21 GMT
I associate tragedy with many things that have already been touched upon in earlier posts—9/11 and Romeo and Juliet—but I’d like to dance with my classmates who find death to be the basis of tragedy. Certainly, death can play a part in tragedy, but it does not define it. It’s certainly difficult to deal with loss, but it isn’t a tragedy if a man or woman dies of old age after living a full life. It’s a tragedy if a child dies. Tragedy is attached to opportunity, and opportunities missed.
In the case of 9/11, tragedy came from the abrupt loss of lives and opportunities as well as the overall feeling that we—referring to the United States—could have prevented the situation. The same goes for the Colorado shooting. After the incident, James Holmes’ past of mental illness and suspicious purchases showed the public that the Colorado incident could have been prevented, adding to the tragedy of the deaths.
With Romeo and Juliet, the tragedy comes from the situation in which the young lovers find themselves. The opportunity for a stable relationship is missed before they even meet, and, at the very end, the opportunity for both to not commit suicide is missed as well.
Like Jenny said, tragedy is associated with the phrase “if only.”
“If only we had strengthened airport security sooner.”
“If only the psychiatrist had reported James Holmes’ behavior.”
“If only Juliet had woken before Romeo committed suicide.”
I realize that all of these examples deal with death. But tragedy is not contained in death itself, but the events leading up to death. As we see in Murakami’s A Wild Sheep Chase, the tragedy in the author’s situation is that he hasn’t taken opportunities out of fear. If he proceeds to do so until death the tragedy will be heightened, but the truth of the tragedy is found in his missed opportunities—that he has not lived life to the fullest. The same applies for Our Town. Wilder’s play does not appear tragic until the protagonist realizes she hasn’t lived each moment of her life.
In a sense, each moment passing is a kind of death. It is a tragedy when these moments pass without attention—and when the realization that these moments have passed sets in.
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Post by naomiporter on Nov 20, 2013 7:06:31 GMT
Oxford Dictionary defines "tragedy" as "an event causing great suffering, destruction, and distress." Based on this definition, I do not think that tragedy is defined by the number of people it affects because there are so many instances of events we would all call tragic that only affect one person. The extent of suffering that an event causes does not simply refer to the number of people affected. If one thousand people all have a slightly bad day, this does not create a tragedy. One person, however, can be the sole victim of tragedy if they experience something truly awful. This often involves death, but not always, as there are other ways for a person's life to be destroyed. I also do not think the definition is influenced by the closeness of the event to us personally (though it certainly changes the impact it has on us) because regardless of our perspective of it, the event already is in and of itself some degree of sad. I very much agree with Rachel that tragedy has much greater power over us when it is personal for us. I simply do not think that this power is the source of an event's tragic nature, since that is just our perspective.
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Post by patricktbutenhoff on Nov 20, 2013 7:12:55 GMT
I'd have to say that tragedy is not so much a matter of misery as a matter of crushed expectations. The real difference between the mundane misery of human existence and the sadness of a tragedy is drama. A lot of works like Cat's Cradle can be sadder in topic and tone than Shakespearean tragedies, but we wouldn't necessarily categorize the former category as tragedies. Cat's Cradle is bleak and depressing, but there's no passion in its sadness, and this passion is what transforms a normal sad work into a tragedy. People die all the time in life, but life is not a tragedy in itself. Life as a whole may be depressing, but this does not mean that it's a tragic story. Tragedy implies a fall, a hope for the future that is cut short by some unfortunate event. Cat's Cradle lacks the drama of tragedy because it is bleak rather than distressed. We don't spend the entire book hoping for something to happen and then exclaim, "Noooooo!" when our hopes are dashed. Romeo and Juliet is tragic because we see the positive energy of the young couple's love--and then we see it die. Tragedies, at least from my perspective, are works that show the reader something beautiful and subsequently kill it. The subject matter itself isn't crucial; the narrator of A Wild Sheep Chase losing his girlfriend is just as valid a tragic element as Juliet committing suicide. Both events skillfully represent the collapse of the protagonist's dreams. The reason that we see death so often in tragedies is that it is the ultimate example of a shattered dream, a passionately saddening event that can never be undone. A tragic element like losing one's girlfriend still leaves some hope for improvement in the future; a tragic element like dying completely eradicates this possibility. The finality of death makes it very effective as a vehicle for tragedy.
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