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Post by davidqin on Mar 27, 2014 4:04:22 GMT
I need to start reading the book because half of spring break is already gone  ((((( but I'll put this thread up for our group so we can get coordinated. Our topic is "The Horror" and the Lie (also the sixth group). The instructions below basically what Parris had in his document from the handout section: - We (group) should be prepared to deliver a mini-lesson on your assigned topic related to Heart of Darkness.
- Our discussion should include a walkthrough of several passages that deal with your topic and how these passages work to create meaning and effect in the book as a whole. Don’t just point to passages; describe specifically how they work in the context of Conrad’s greater purpose. If you are having trouble getting started, try filling in the blanks of the following sentence:
Conrad uses (insert comment about your topic here) in order to help reinforce his idea that (insert your understanding of Conrad’s overall purpose here).
- From there, any discussion of text should focus on how it develops and refines the idea in your completed sentence. Aim for about ten minutes of presentation time.
As you read, first figure out what "The Horror" and the Lie might be, and then work to find passages that relate to this motif, as they will be useful for our presentation.
Mr. Parris said we can also coordinate with members of the other AP English class if we need help. For the benefit of the A2 members, your friendly compatriots in A4 are Emily Wolfram, Robert Xu, and me (David Qinnnnnnn). Please tell us who you are!
This has been DAVID QINNNNNNN
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Post by sheridanf on Mar 28, 2014 2:33:53 GMT
Hey guys, I'm also from A4.
I think to start off we should just figure out what "the horror" and the lie is exactly.
The lie is a bit easier to figure out. At the very end of the book, instead of telling Kurtz's fiancee the true final words of "The horror! The horror!" Marlow lies by telling her that his final words were her name (if you want to look at the full passage, it's on page 69). What's important to note about this part is firstly, that previously in the story Marlow made a point of explaining just how much he despises lying, yet he seems to be okay with lying here. The second important part is his rationalizing of the lie, that "I could not tell her. It would have been too dark- too dark altogether..." The third important part is the passage following the lie:
"Marlow ceased, and sat apart, indistinct and silent, in the pose of a meditating Buddha. Nobody moved for a time. 'We have lost the first of the ebb,' said the Director suddenly. I raised my head. The offing was barred by a black bank of clouds, and the tranquil waterway leading to the uttermost ends of the earth flowed sombre under the overcast sky- seemed to lead into the heart of an immense darkness". (Hey, look, it's the title of the book)
In general, everything surrounding the lie, and including the lie itself, is really vague and ambiguous. Before Marlow is very certain of things, such as his hate of lying, but after his adventure he's not so sure anymore. The ending itself is ambiguous- am I supposed to feel happy that the ship can finally move, or should I feel sad about that "heart of an immense darkness"? Most likely, Conrad is being vague on purpose, and I feel like the lie is meant to stand for the ambiguity of human nature.
Second is "the horror," which I'm not so sure about. The passage that first mentions "the horror" is page 62. Kurtz lies on his death be and tells Marlow that "I am lying here in the dark waiting for death," to which Marlow responds, "Oh, nonsense!". Marlow then describes how Kurtz's face changes to one of pride and power and despair (woah, look at that ambiguity). It's at that point that Kurtz "cried out twice, a cry that was no more than a breath: 'The horror! The horror!'"
According to Marlow, this statement is Kurtz's summation of his experience on Earth- "He had summed up- he had judged" (pg. 63). At this point, I'm thinking that "the horror" is not so much a specific event that happened but rather something that has the possibility of happening. Humans can be capable of so many awful things (such as putting shrunken heads on poles. Not cool, Kurtz), and Kurtz has experienced this first hand in himself. Perhaps Kurtz is horrified at the horrible capabilities of humanity.
Please post if you have more ideas on this/ any other passages that are helpful!
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Post by davidqin on Mar 29, 2014 17:17:18 GMT
Sorry for forgetting you, Sheridan!
I want to agree with what's been said, but also add that "the horror" and the lie serve as opposing elements. "The horror" represents the reality of what's actually happening in the Congo, such as the brutality of the Belgians toward the natives, the heads on the poles, as well as the sheer chaos and incompetence witnessed at many of the stations. Then there's the lie, which can refer to how Kurtz is viewed so highly in Europe (and perhaps the same can be said for Marlow and his "excellent references"), as well as the overall civilizing mission in the Congo (such as building schools and other services to "enlighten" the natives).
This is just a quick response based on what's at the top of my head right now. More to come later.
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Post by emwolfram on Mar 30, 2014 20:52:51 GMT
I agree with what David said about "the lie" also representing a bigger overarching idea. The way that Kurtz is idealized by the other characters in the story is in it's own way a lie. And Marlow's choice to not share the true last words of Kurtz is Marlow's way of actively continuing the lie. The lie only works if people choose to continue it and believe it.
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Post by carolinedorman on Mar 31, 2014 4:27:50 GMT
Hey guys is it possible to join your group? I had to leave early for tennis last class so I didn't get assigned a group.
Some additions- I agree with what Sheridan said about the lie---I think the "horror and the lie" serves an important role in highlighting Europe's opinion of Africa and humanity in general. Like Sheriday said, When Marlow talks to Kurtz's fiancee, he lies about what Kurtz's last words were because they were so dark. The lie is that we refuse to see the horror- the dark side of humanity.
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Post by moreno on Mar 31, 2014 5:04:37 GMT
The lie and the horror are two-fold. The Europeans had promised the enlightenment and prosperity of the natives, but instead they brought pure evil to the Congo and its people. Secondly, like you said above Caroline, "the lie is that we refuse to see the horror" (Kurtz's last words). The truth continued to be twisted and manipulated even in the end.
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Post by robertxu on Mar 31, 2014 19:57:37 GMT
I think that the "horror" and the lie basically symbolize the moral divide between Kurtz and the company. There is very little to indicate that Kurtz has a change of heart right before his death. The company believes in order, but kurtz believes in anarchy. "The horror" could be Kurtz's disgust with the compant and his disillusionment with its values, and the lie could be the idea that the company creates order and stability, it leaves individuals like kurtz in charge who promote anarchy.
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Post by davidqin on Apr 6, 2014 21:49:12 GMT
Alright, I'll put something down here so we have something to go off of for Monday. I think we should first establish what the horror and the lie are, using quotes to help drive the point home. Then we talk about the effect that this motif has. Quotes for the Horror: - "Going up that river was like travelling back to the earliest beginnings of the world, when vegetation rioted on the earth and the big trees were kings" (29)
- First full paragraph on page 31 (describes the savages)
- "Everything belonged to him - but that was a trifle. The thing was to know what he belonged to, how many powers of darkness claimed him for their own" (43) -- Kurtz is a quasi-deity in this part of the world
- Kurtz's report to the International Society for the Suppression of Savage Customs: "Exterminate the brutes!"
- Heads on sticks (page 52)
- First time Marlow sees Kurtz as he is carried down to the river (page 53)
- "'I had immense plans,' he muttered irresolutely'" and "'Your success in Europe is assured in any case,' I affirmed steadily" (58)
- "The horror! The horror!" (62)
Quotes for the Lie: - "'Ah! So they talk of him down there,' he murmured to himself. Then he began again, assuring me Mr. Kurtz was the best agent he had, an exceptional man, of the greatest importance to the Company" (19)
- "The word 'ivory' rang in the air, was whispered, was sighed. You would think they were praying to it" (19)
- ""'He is a prodigy,' he said at last. 'He is an emissary of pity, and science, and progress, and devil knows what else. We want,' he began to declaim suddenly, 'for the guidance of the cause entrusted to us by Europe, so to speak, higher intelligence, wider sympathies, a singleness of purpose'" (21)
- Also on that page, the brickmaker calls Marlow "You are of the new gang - the gang of virtue," showing he is part of the lie as well because he has good connections back in Belgium
- "You know I hate, detest, and can't bear a lie, not because I am straighter than the rest of us, but simply because it appalls me. There is a taint of death, a flavour of mortality in lies" (23)
I think that will clarify what we mean by the horror and the lie. We might want to go over varying interpretations of the horror and the lie (horror of the natives OR the horror of what's being perpetrated on the natives, and the lie of civilizing mission and what's told back at home in Europe).
We might then talk about how that sets up some ambiguity within Marlow's moral character (and to an extension, Conrad's) because of his lie to the Intended at the end, as well as how this contrast works to focus our attention to the discrepancies between truth and what others perceive to be the truth (like the Allegory of the Cave).
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Post by emwolfram on Apr 7, 2014 5:20:09 GMT
David I think that is perfect. We can also expand to what the horror and the lie says about human nature. Perhaps the fact that the lie could only have an effect if people choose to believe it and/or spread it, speaks to our capability to ignore mass terror in order to stay comfortable in our own lives.
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Post by emwolfram on Apr 7, 2014 5:28:58 GMT
**Also keep in mind the fact that the meaning behind kurtz last words is ambiguous allows there to be multiple interpretations with no explicitly right or wrong answer
Perhaps the horror is all the death and pain in congo or perhaps it is the fact kurtz can no longer carry out his plans
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Post by anaritter on Jun 3, 2014 1:27:04 GMT
I focused more on "The Lie" when I considered this motif. Obviously there are many lies in the book, but I think the most prominent lie is what Marlow told Kurtz's "Intended" regarding his last words. Marlow, after careful consideration and struggling against his better judgment and his own morals, decides to make up last words for Kurtz that are nearly opposite of the truth.
Kurtz holds power in this lie, as it demands a certain amount of residual pain and guilt over a lie that is not his. It also serves to do what Kurtz has done throughout the entire story; created a web of lies that spreads in order to change his image in the eyes of others so that no one really can see through the ambiguity that surrounds Kurtz. It's only right that after a book full of lies, Kurtz is even followed after death by persistent lies.
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Post by emilybrinkmann on Jun 4, 2014 3:53:17 GMT
I take the lie a litter differently than some of the other members of the group. I think that they lie represents the things Marlow and Kurtz tell themselves about the savages. We all tell ourselves to help us get through the day, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but when it comes down to it we all lie. The horror in the book symbolizes the horror of injustice but also the horror in the lack of change and the big elephant in the room of being stubborn. Marlow is open, at least more than some others may be. The horror could also be the death and pain that this book captures ( on a literal level).
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Post by madisonarmst on Jun 4, 2014 7:31:37 GMT
David hit the nail on the head with his reference to moral ambiguity. The horror and the lie, and their various interpretations, all connect back to Kurtz's and Conrad's questionable morals. In terms of the horror, they travel into the African interior and discover the "horror". For them, this horror included the savage natives and the jungle. This was something they had never experienced before, and instead of having a desire to explore it, they automatically placed themselves above the people there. In addition, there are two layers of the lie. Firstly, Conrad lies to Kurtz's fiancé about his final words. Conrad tells her that his last words were her name, when in fact they were "The Horror! The Horror!". This is a relatively small lie, but it greatly affects Kurtz's fisnce's life and how she remembers Kurtz. It also questions Conrad's motives and character to tell a lie of that nature. Next, the bigger lie is that people like Kurtz and Conrad travel to Africa to help or "save" the people who live there. The people are perfectly content and never once requested their help. By viewing himself as more important than the Africans, lying to Kurtz's fiancé and travelling to Africa under the pretense of "helping" the Africans, Conrad's character and morals are certainly called into question.
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Post by shannonfender on Jun 4, 2014 14:59:19 GMT
The lie comes inherent within the point of view. Conrad is telling the story through his first person narrative, in which he imparts the story of Marlow. Then, we transition to a first person narrative from the perspective of Marlow within the story. This structure reveals something about Marlow that even he is blind to: Even though Marlow detaches himself from the atrocities of the jungle, he too is an integral part of the chaos and destruction in this "heart of darkness". When Kurtz violently shouts "The Horror! The Horror!" in his last flash of life, the reader comes to the stark realization, as Kurtz did, that we live in a depraved and horrible world.
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((((( but I'll put this thread up for our group so we can get coordinated.
