Kasey
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Post by Kasey on Jul 15, 2013 21:19:51 GMT
Given this is a pretty recent novel (published 1971), I'm inclined to think and search for some sort of deeper connection in Grendel's character. He's obviously very human, so given that, I'm wondering who/what part of society does Grendel represent?
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amychen
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“But the wild things cried, “Oh please don’t go—we’ll eat you up—we love you so!”
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Post by amychen on Jul 15, 2013 22:32:05 GMT
This is strikingly relevant to a comment I just made on another post. Grendel's absolute power is reflective of the lives of Stalin and Mao Zedong, but appears to me more similar to that of and sympathizes with Chairman Mao.
Chairman Mao and Grendel both had a period of time during which they were misunderstood and treated poorly because of it. Mao was ostracized by intellectuals for his lower-class status while Grendel was ostracized for being a "beast." Both of them eventually reached the status of having absolute power, and used it to take out lingering revenge---Grendel uses his power to torment the humans while Mao's Cultural Revolution got rid of the elite class, both victim-groups having not been the original instigators of the attacks.
Although I admit this is not a perfect metaphor---Grendel does not have any other Grendels to rise against the humans with---there is something to be said about how absolute power leads to similar results of devastation. Essentially, Grendel is representative of all those who are given too much power; royalty, mob bosses, and monsters alike.
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Post by betsyrahe on Jul 19, 2013 19:39:35 GMT
The'60s was very much a time of protest and an upheaval of society. The Civil Rights "revolution" that started in the '60s definately continoued to the '70s. This historical context can shed some light to the world John Gardner was writing to. To me Grendel is very much an outcast of society. While he does spend a lot of time judging humans he doesn't want to create change like the protesters in the '60s-70's. Grendel is the part of society that feels isolated from the greater population, and because of that he feels superior. He feels he's so different than these humans and feels the need to prove himself as different. He represent the people in society that feel they are superior partially for their isolation from the rest. An interesting fact I just stumbled upon is the emergence of self help books in the 1970s that show a greater concern for one selves than the greater of society. I think Grendel is very much concerned with having his monster reputation intact and caring more about himself than helping society(aka humans).
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rishi
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Post by rishi on Aug 2, 2013 2:40:07 GMT
I believe that Grendel does not necessarily represent a group in society but rather represents what he is: a monster. Grendel simply represents the material form of envy, jealousy, and violence that is inherent in humans. Through observation and symbolism, Grendel reveals that humans can be monsters too although many refuse to accept this reality. As Grendel watches Hrothgar's kingdom violently expand its influence, Grendel, shocked, explains, "I was filled with a wordless, obscurely murderous unrest" (Gardner 40). It is ironic that Grendel, a monster, is angered by the violence of humans. I believe that Gardner uses this irony to demonstrate that even a monster would find the humans' actions horrifying. In this way, Grendel's observations expose the overlooked and inherent evil in humans.
Not only does Grendel observe the "monster" inside of many humans, but Grendel is also the manifestation of this internal darkness. Throughout life, humans struggle to cope with, rationalize, and ultimately overcome their intrinsic evil. In Grendel, the most apparent example of this "struggle" is the emotional effect the Shaper's songs have on Grendel. As the Shaper sings that Grendel has been cursed by God, Grendel reacts, "Such was the power of the Shaper's harp! Stood wriggling my face, letting tears down my nose, grinding my fists into my streaming eyes..." (Gardner 51). Grendel's emotional reaction to the Shaper's song shows that the idealistic beliefs and rationalizations presented by the Shaper can be used to suppress feelings of evil. Grendel is so moved by the Shaper's songs that he immediately attempts to mend his negative relationship with the humans and begs for peace. Essentially, the Shaper's ideas are able to turn Grendel's previously evil thoughts into hopes and desires for peace. Similarly, idealistic beliefs and feelings of victory and hope are able to divert the humans' awareness of their inherent evil to acknowledgements of their glory.
The humans in the novel are constantly trying ultimately kill Grendel. I think that it is significant that Grendel's murderer echoes the words of the dragon and is described as having dragon-like characteristics such as wings. It is clear that Grendel, throughout the novel, is torn between believing either the dragon's beliefs or the Shaper's ideologies, and before his final battle, Grendel seems to have accepted the dragon's nihilistic and hopeless beliefs. Perhaps Gardner, through Grendel's death, is trying to say that, like everything else, only time can cause evil to completely disappear. Neither the ordinary human nor the Shaper and his justifications can destroy evil.
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Post by allegra on Aug 11, 2013 2:20:09 GMT
I think that Grendel as a part of our society does not necessarily represent a singular person, as Rishi stated, but rather a part of society that cannot be escaped. He is not a physical character that can be identified but instead represents a common human trait. For example, Grendel chooses to scare the humans even though he has no need to eat them most times. He does it just for fun. Humans (and sometimes dolphins) are also known to do this. It has been suggested before on another thread that Grendel represents the dark sides of humanity, but I think it could be taken even further.
When Grendel encounters the dragon for the first time, the dragon suggests that Grendel continue scaring the humans, saying “you are, so to speak, the brute existent by which they learn to define themselves” (Gardner 73). I think that Grendel actually represents fear in society. The humans fear Grendel, and through that fear they learn to define themselves and to create. If Grendel was gone, humanity would find something else to fear, or so says the dragon. Grendel’s ability to scare is what propels humanity forward and it can be argued that fear is what continues to further our society today.
Humans created homes to shield themselves from the outdoors- things they feared out of a brute desire for survival. Humans created art and poetry to depict their fears. And even today, technology and recycling have come about out of fear of the destruction of the planet and valuable species. Without fear, nothing would move forward. Humanity needs, a Grendel to improve. If no one was ever afraid, nothing would need to improve.
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Post by abbylyons on Aug 17, 2013 5:30:08 GMT
I would like to disagree with Amy’s post above.
Mao caused many people’s deaths, but that doesn’t make him like Grendel. Mao had a higher purpose: to lead his people out of poverty and foreign domination and unify them into a modern nation. We can disagree with how he achieved his goals, and we can deplore the staggering human cost that was incurred, but we cannot deny that Mao wanted a better life for his people. Many Chinese intellectuals pointed out that Mao’s implementation plans had serious flaws. Quite understandably, Mao concluded that these intellectuals were obstacles in his path and removed them. This was not revenge; it was ruthlessness, which is a characteristic of many great leaders throughout history. In no way was Grendel anything like Mao.
Stalin also caused many people’s deaths. Like Mao, his goal was to dramatically change his country. As the premier of the Soviet Union, he led “a period of industrialization and collectivization that resulted in the rapid transformation of the USSR from an agrarian society into an industrial power” (Wikipedia). Unlike Mao, Stalin killed many of those his real and suspected opponents instead of imprisoning them. However, all of his attacks had a purpose, which makes him very different from Grendel too.
In response to Kasey’s question: Grendel repeatedly kills humans in a gruesome manner with no apparent purpose. No segment of human society behaves like this. Even revenge killers focus on those who tormented them and do not kill randomly as Grendel does. Any human who wantonly killed dozens of people would be labeled criminally insane and locked up for life. Clearly, Grendel does not represent any segment of human society.
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Post by billfeng on Aug 17, 2013 7:11:38 GMT
Yeah, I have to also have to degree with Amy's post on this issue.
Grendel was no Mao. Mao may have committed many ruthless crimes but they were all int the name of human "progress". I think Grendel most likely reflects the deepest corners of human brutality and loneliness.
I also have to strongly disagree with Abby's point on how Grendel doesn't resemble humanity at all. Unlike how the Scandinavians in the novel are slaughtering each other for power throughout the novel, Grendel is causing havoc for the heck of it by the end of the novel. Grendel possesses the rudimentary trait to kill and shares the same language as the humans. I believe that Grendel's desire for murder represents the primitive (and possibly natural) instinct of human conflict.
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Post by jessicapollard on Aug 20, 2013 6:21:41 GMT
While I find Grendel himself to represent certain aspects of humankind, I also find that he represents human motivations. This becomes primarily clear during Grendel's first interaction with people following his visit with the Dragon, when he first receives his immunity to human weaponry. As Hrothgar's thanes begin to attack Grendel, one man in particular reminds them, " 'Remember ... the boasts you made as the meadbowl passed! Remember our good king's gift of rings and pay him wit all your might for his many kindnesses!' (70)". Working against Grendel is a sign of pride and respect towards Hrothgar, even if it is to the death. Grendel notes, " Another one came at me, gloating in his blear-eyed heroism, maniacally joyful because he had bragged that he would die for his king and he was doing it. He did it. Another came, reeling and whooping, trying to make his eyes focus. I laughed. It was outrageous: they came, they fell, howling insanity about brothers, fathers, glorious Hrothgar, and God (70)." The chaos that Grendel causes throughout the kingdom proves to be a very unifying force as the thanes are glad to have something worth dying for, for the sake of their community. Grendel serves as a depressing reminder that violence and tragedy are far more effective in creating a sense of community or a sense of pro-activity than happiness and peace ever will be. He is the opposing political party that your family hates on together, the ravaging illness that draws millions of cause supporters on Facebook, the boy band that your friends and you love to loathe.
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amychen
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“But the wild things cried, “Oh please don’t go—we’ll eat you up—we love you so!”
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