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Post by moreno on Aug 1, 2013 2:06:03 GMT
Chapter 5 is very interesting to me. It's the chapter when Grendel goes to the Dragon to inquire about the Sharper and the meaning of life. It is also in this chapter where we see Grendel, finally, in an inferior position, and we meet a character nastier than Grendel. The Dragon tells Grendel about the humans, stating:
“‘They only think they think. No total vision, total system, merely schemes with a vague family resemblance, no more identity than bridges and, say, spiderwebs. But they rush across chasms on spiderwebs, and sometimes they make it, and that, they think, settles that! I could tell you a thousand tiresome stories of their absurdity,” (64).
It is clear from the Dragon’s monologue that he finds humans to be dumb and ‘low-level’ creatures. He is cynical when it comes to living and offers Grendel nothing but a more negative outlook on the world.
When I was reading this chapter I found it difficult to read the Dragon’s words. I found that I hated the Dragon and wished for Grendel to never have gone to the cave. If you felt the same way... do you think we dislike the Dragon because he diminishes our race and we feel protective, or because what he says has some element of truth and we are fearful to admit it?
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Post by Anna M. on Aug 8, 2013 19:17:48 GMT
The Dragon is definitely obnoxious. When you think about it, he claims he can see everything, past and present, and having such a broad perspective might make things seem pointless. I don't think that the dragon's outlook should be worrisome for humans because unlike the dragon, humans can live in specific moments. Humans experience joy and sorrow and we can't see the future which I gives us more meaning to live. We don't know what will happen next so we keep on living each moment looking forward to what happens next. The dragon doesn't have that, he sees everything and sits on a pile of treasure, in fact the dragon seems to have made a purpose for himself by protecting his wealth. I almost think that Gardner is saying that someone who is only concerned about wealth and luxury has lost the ability to see what life is all about. Summing this up: I believe that Gardner doesn't support the idea of life as meaningless.
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Post by garygates on Aug 9, 2013 1:32:31 GMT
I actually have a completely different opinion on the dragon, and I know that you asked that only people who agree with you answer your question but I have well though out group of points that justify my answering a question that I am no supposed to answer. Firstly, rules are meant to be broken; secondly, I want to answer the question so I will; and thirdly, what's the point of asking a question and trying to provoke an argument (because that is what forums are for) if the question is only addressed to one biased side of an argument?
Not moving from my rant to my actual response, I rather enjoyed the dragon. Although I enjoy listening to the Dragon's words, I think I understand why you might dislike the Dragon. The Dragon stands for fate, and laughs the ideas that we would like to believe are true, like free will, because if free will doesn't exist, as the Dragon tells us, than life is utterly pointless. If we truly follow the Dragon's fatalist timeline then we really have no control over our own lives, and that is a scary thought. Our pride and ego want us act heroically, and feel like we have a purpose, but the Dragon just scoffs at this idea because in his mind our actions are just "A brief pulsation in the black hole of eternity" (74). We are so unimportant that even the end of our existent is not significant in the spectrum of time. It is neither the end nor the beginning, just dust. Or stated better in the Dragon's words, "Pick an apocalypse any apocalypse...such is the end of the flicker of time...Not a real ending of course, nor even a beginning. Mere ripple in Time's stream" (71).
I think that you also dislike the Dragon because of his cynical and condescending laughter; however, this is exactly why I enjoy his lecturing and teachings. This novel is rather satirical at times and forces us to look at our demise in a different manner than we are used to. The Dragon scoffs at our effort and deaths as he sees them as being futile, but he also laughs at himself and his own fate; "Things come and go... That's the gist of it...Even I will be gone. A certain man will absurdly kill me. A terrible pity-loss of a remarkable form of life. Conservationists will howl" (70). I love this novel's dark humor. The way it laughs at the inevitability of death may be difficult to read for some, but personally, it packs just the right amount of cynicism to brighten my day.
Although I like the Dragon, and others may not, that is not what is important about the Dragon. He exists either way as an ideology that struggles constantly in Grendel's head with the words of the Shaper. The Dragon's importance is that he at times provides Grendel comfort and leads to Grendel's growth, because fate can at times be teaching and comforting. Fate tells Grendel that he is not wasting his life nor is he making the wrong decision because time does not really care what he does. At time fate may be discomforting to Grendel for the same reasons, such as when he fantasizes about being humanity's famed nemesis, but fate makes him doubt that this villainy will have any real purpose. The clash of fate and free will really mold Grendel's mercurial character, and that is the real importance of Grendel's meeting with the Dragon.
Well, on a final note, if the Dragon's words ring true then there was really no point for me to write up this response. In fact maybe I should have held back my cynical thoughts, left my summer homework incomplete, and used this time to run to the nearest jewelry store, robbing the store of all it's wonderful treasure and fleeing quickly high into the mountains where I would live the rest of my pointless life sitting on my newly acquired gold. But I am a human. Though I may be living my life incorrectly, I have no way of knowing what way of living is correct. All that I know and depend on is that I must instead trust my instincts which tell me that this world has purpose. I can still find pleasure in changing the world around me (or trying and failing to do so as is more common in my life) even though I know that in time I will be forgotten. I will not waste what could possibly be an opportunity to mold the world for me and those around me by wallowing away in a far-off cave, but instead, dip my feet in fate every now and then by listening joyously to the cynical musings of fatalists like the Dragon.
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Post by mattagritelley on Aug 17, 2013 0:17:20 GMT
Feelings of resentment usually stem from some sort of defense mechanism. There is no doubt in my mind that the Dragon touches on a subject that many refuse to acknowledge, triggering resentment out of fear, misunderstanding, and ignorance (Gardner will be happy to know he succeeded in making you hate the Dragon). The Dragon casually proposes that human life and our own interactions with one another are entirely insignificant in the grand scheme of time. This is intended to trigger a response in humans, for we cannot fathom being insignificant and small in an incomprehensibly large world. Recognizing our relevance is paramount in our concept of purpose and will to live. The Dragon preaches, "If man's the irrelevance that interests you, stick with him! Scare him to glory! It's all the same in the end, matter and motion, simple or complex. No difference, finally. Death, transfiguration. Ashes to ashes and slime to slime, amen" (73). Ignorance is bliss. The Dragon's nihilistic views even seem to subside for a moment, as the Dragon encourages Grendel to scare to his heart's content, although it is pointless. Nonetheless, the idea is for Grendel to find his niche in society and continue to perform his routine for his own pleasure, and that alone, for it is obvious that his existence has no effect on the world as a whole.
This is why I agree with Gary. I love the Dragon and his views. I, for one, cannot see into the past or the future (I'm unsure about the rest of you, however), but I honestly enjoy thinking about the vastness of the Universe, the way it exponentially expands and decreases Earth to the size of our own perception of an electron. We are small! So insignificant compared to the trillions and trillions of other things taking place in the Universe, and the Dragon acknowledges this by noting the false sense of purpose humans have as a society. I think it is so important to embrace the fact that we mean nothing--are merely a minuscule part of a whole--and take a step back to reflect once in a while. Things are not always what they seem, and although this world is all we have to build off of, it is not everything.
So to answer your question, yes, some do feel defensive and taken aback by this incomprehensible realization, but others, like Gary and me, have learned to accept this truth and marvel at the wonders of our tiny speck of blue in a realm of the utter (and dominant) unknown.
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Post by haleyjensen on Aug 17, 2013 2:13:36 GMT
I believe the answer to the question "do you think we dislike the Dragon because he diminishes our race and we feel protective, or because what he says has some element of truth and we are fearful to admit it?" is both. On one hand, I absolutely think we dislike the Dragon because he diminishes our race and we feel protective; at least I think this way. I'm never really fond of people telling me I'm not as significant, intelligent or impactful as I think I am--even though it's often true and important for me to hear. I also think there is a hint of truth to what the Dragon is saying, especially in the passage Morgan quoted above. As a reminder, the passage states, “They only think they think. No total vision, total system, merely schemes with a vague family resemblance, no more identity than bridges and, say, spiderwebs. But they rush across chasms on spiderwebs, and sometimes they make it, and that, they think, settles that! I could tell you a thousand tiresome stories of their absurdity” (64). As with any literature, there are many ways to interpret and apply it. I think this quote can speak of what happens when people give themselves over to apathy and look at day-to-day life as mundane. When viewed this way, the Dragon speaks truth because when we lose sight of what we live for, life can become chaotic and we become detached. I think a great example of this is my experience junior year. Looking back on it, at times I definitely feel like I caved and gave in to the generalization that the only possible experience for junior year is a stressful one; I settled for being a spider and fell straight into the trap of what the Dragon speaks of in these lines. It's funny how it's possible to look at a person you dislike, like the Dragon, and discover that the reason you dislike them is because it forces you to look at your life and think about your own character.
However, my main reason for disliking the Dragon is because he puts himself up on a pedestal without having the credentials to back up his self-proclaimed high position. Why should Grendel trust what the Dragon says? Consider the way the Dragon treats him. If I was in Grendel's shoes, and showed up to find the Dragon laughing at me and mocking me, I wouldn't be eager to take advice from him or hear his opinions. The Dragon gives Grendel all of this "wisdom" and leaves Grendel no space to even ask questions about what the Dragon is saying. One example of this on page 62: The Dragon gives Grendel advice and refuses to answer why Grendel should act the way he just told him to. I believe a just leader would leave Grendel room to explore the claims he, the Dragon, has made.
To wrap this up... There are many reasons I'm not a fan of the Dragon, but they are not all the Dragon's fault. I definitely think that the Dragon (and the question Morgan posed) challenge us to consider what traits we look for in a leader or role model. Grendel and the Dragon are a literary example of issues we face in everyday life: who/what do we believe, and why? How do we choose to respond to bold statements and claims about life? And finally, what kind of impact do we have on the people around us? Through the story of a Dragon and a monster, Gardner challenges us to take a hard look at ourselves.
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Post by rileyhatfield on Aug 29, 2013 23:03:48 GMT
Yes, the Dragon says some things about humans and our society that are pretty hard to swallow. I agree with Haley in the sense that the answer is both. We, as humans, do feel protective over our own kind and thus reading the Dragon's insults we think, 'He doesn't know what it's like to be human so he can't say those things.' So therefore we have an automatic dislike for the know-it-all Dragon. Along with that I believe that everyone knows how many mistakes humans can make, and we've seen it time and time again throughout history. This is where our pride can tend to get in the way of things and we are truly fearful to admit that we (meaning the human race) are capable of making stupid decisions. I personally don't like the Dragon because of the negative outlook on life he has and how he sees life as meaningless. This just puts another bad thought into poor Grendel's mind regarding humans. In fact, the Dragon was the one who told Grendel that it was his job to be a monster toward the humans so that it would push the humans forward in life and so that they could advance, but as he says how meaningless life can be and how pointless it would be for Grendel since it's all "ashes to ashes, slime to slime," (73) which contradicts his monster theory for Grendel.
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Post by coreybrown on Sept 1, 2013 20:47:36 GMT
Personally, I enjoyed the character of the dragon. Sure he hands out some hard truths about the human race, but he also allows us to mock the simplicity of humanity’s thinking in that time period. We can laugh with him about how foolish they can be. One of my favorite parts is when he mocks their deductive logic: “All pigs eat cheese. Old Snaggle is a pig. If Snaggle is sick and refuses to eat, try cheese” (64). While I probably use that same kind of logic on a daily basis, I find it amusing to think about how silly it can sound when boiled down to its basic parts. I also found it funny when, in the quote that Gary used previously, he says “…A certain man will absurdly kill me. A terrible pity-loss of a remarkable form of life. Conservationists will howl” (70). Conservationists are not a part of the setting of the novel, but they are certainly a part of our time period. The dragon, by being able to see the past, present, and future, is able to relate to us as readers as well as past us. He mocks the significance of one life because he can see the vastness of everything else. While some may find this difficult to swallow, it’s an interesting thing to ponder. I, like Matt, enjoy taking a step back sometimes and viewing the universe in all its immensity. Afterwards, however, I like to step back in and enjoy the fact that, unlike the dragon who sees across all of space and time, I can live each moment and take life as it comes at me and enjoy it.
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