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Post by hannahlewman on Aug 1, 2013 17:20:15 GMT
While most people know that the environment a person is raised in will impact his or her personality, it is still impossible to know just how much one's identity is formed by the influence of others. In Grendel, Gardner shows how much outside forces can impact one's development when he writes, "You are... the brute existent by which they learn to define themselves... You are mankind, or man's condition"(Gardner 73). This shows how influential outside forces can be in the growth of a person or group of people, but it also raises the question do people have any say in their identities, or are their personalities determined entirely by the forces and people around them?
While the presence of some force can shape identities, the absence of something may have the same impact. Gardner comments on identity when he writes, "What will we call the Hrothgar-Wrecker when Hrothgar has been wrecked?(Gardner 91). This seems to imply that by building his life around others, Grendel has made himself vulnerable to losing part of his identity, but can one who has already established his or her identity change completely because of an outside force? Or is one's personality set in stone once one has established oneself? Is it possible to have a complete change of identity? And if so, are such changes driven by internal urges, or external forces?
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Post by Anna M. on Aug 8, 2013 19:52:53 GMT
People do have a say in their identities. It really depends on whether to be influenced positively or negatively from those around them. For example, if someone has a cruel older sibling, they could either become like their sibling or be influenced to be different from their sibling and to be kinder to others. So yes, people are influenced by those around them but they also have their own basis of values that guide them to either be negatively or positively influenced.
Life changing events can occur that do change someone's personality. I believe it depends on the confidence of the person as well. Grendel is not confident, he constantly doubts his meaning and changes his mind. For example, he suddenly decides not to kill Queen Wealthow (110). Later on Grendel thinks, "I resolved, absolutely and finally, to kill myself...But the next instant, for no particular reason, I changed my mind". For those like Grendel, who are unsure of themselves and what they do, they are easily influenced by those around them. I think if Grendel could ever become who he truly wants to be, thats when he would be less easily influenced by the likes of the Dragon and Hrothgar.
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Post by robertxu on Aug 13, 2013 6:21:05 GMT
I believe that there are no absolute answers in the novel to your questions that pertain to whether one's identity by external/internal forces.
For example, one can look at the ram and Grendel. Gardner writes about Grendel hurling rocks at the ram, "I hammer the ground with my fists. I hurl a skull-size stone at him. He will not budge" (Gardner 5). The ram is a perfect example of an animal that is stubbornly resisting change and ignorant by nature. Grendel is the exact opposite. Unlike the ram, when he is attacked by others (humans), he learns to adapt by compartmentalizing them in his head as bad people/people he can't trust. Grendel was also raised by his mother who is described as a "life-bloated, baffled, long-suffering hag" (Gardner 11), and he turns out to be an intelligent, self-aware and sensitive creature, with frequent sadistic/nihilistic streaks. Nonetheless, even those frequent sadistic/nihilistic streaks that Grendel experienced were majorly influenced by epiphanies he had after encountering individuals like Hrothgar, the Shaper and the Dragon.
To respond to the question, "Can identities be changed after being formed?" I think the clear answer is no. The novel produces no examples of characters that step outside of their stereotype. Unferth is always trying to fit the caricature of a hero. Hrothgar becomes a little more gentle in his senior years, but is still a conquerer at heart. Grendel remains the same confused character that is torn between fulfilling his role as a "big scary monster" and showing a little compassion whenever he hears The Shaper.
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Post by abbylyons on Aug 17, 2013 3:45:36 GMT
One’s personality is definitely not set in stone. Through the application of modern psychology together with determination and effort, one can change significant aspects of his personality.
A common belief among people is that their attitudes and beliefs drive their actions, and that the arrow of causality points only in this direction. However, according to cognitive dissonance theory, this is not true; humans will shift their attitudes if necessary to match their actions. When a person takes actions that are not consistent with his attitudes, he will feel a strong sense of dissonance. He will need to change either his behavior or his attitudes. If he exerts willpower to continue the actions, the stress will force his attitudes to change to bring them into alignment.
One example of cognitive dissonance is the Stanford Prison Experiment. Ordinary, well-adjusted male college students volunteered to spend time in a simulated prison created by psychologist Phillip Zimbardo. Several volunteers were designated as prison guards and were given uniforms, billy clubs, whistles, and instructions to enforce a set of rules. The rest became prisoners who were locked in barren cells and required to wear embarrassing outfits. After only two days of self-consciously playing their roles, the volunteer guards succumbed to cognitive dissonance and began bullying the prisoners in earnest. Within just four more days, the guards’ behavior became so cruel and degrading that Zimbardo was forced to halt the study for the safety of the volunteer prisoners.
Fortunately, cognitive dissonance can also be used to incite positive change in attitudes and beliefs. If a person changes his actions for the better, his personality will have to improve to come into alignment. This works even for people who are aware of cognitive dissonance theory.
In his play Hamlet, Shakespeare writes, “Assume a virtue, if you have it not… for use can almost change the stamp of nature.” People can change their personalities—all they have to do is act like the kind of person they want to be.
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Post by haleyjensen on Aug 17, 2013 7:41:15 GMT
I think people absolutely have a say in their identity, and that a person's identity and personality can absolutely change. I also think it's important to distinguish between identity and personality.
Webster's dictionary definitions:
Identity: Who a person is or what a thing is
Personality: The total of the psychological, intellectual, emotional and physical characteristics that make up the individual, especially as others see him
A person's identity has such a HUGE impact on their personality, and I do not believe a person's personality can change if their identity doesn't change. Who a person is has giant implications on what a person's personality is like.
As already stated, a person's identity and personality are definitely impacted by the people and environment around them. However, I think it is less the environment and more how a person responds to an environment that shapes who they are. If that is true, then a person's identity and personality are able to change if their response to the world around them changes. It is the external forces around us that prompt an internal change within us. Do we have total control over this or not? It depends on what you believe about a persons control over their emotions. Sometimes we are changed because we cannot help but be changed by what's going on around us. There are a ton of stories in the Bible about people being changed because of a certain event. One example of this is Acts chapter 16:16-40. I encourage you to look up the story to see how it all plays out, because my summary will not do it justice, but here is the gist of it: There were two guys in the Bible named Paul and Silas, and they were missionaries. They had been traveling, healing people through the power of God, and telling people about Jesus. The Roman empire saw these acts as unacceptable on their territory, and Paul and Silas were thrown in jail for the things they had done. While Paul and Silas were in jail, the began singing to God and praying around midnight. While they were doing this, a violent earthquake took place and the chains of all the prisoners came loose. The jail guard saw what had happened and was prepared to kill himself because he thought he had failed his job and that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul yelled to the man "Do not harm yourself! We are all here!" (v28). The man proceeded to throw himself at Paul and Silas' feet. The man made the decision to believe in Jesus that night, and the Bible says he was filled with joy. This story is a great example of an external force that prompts an internal change. The combination of the people and events that were around the jailer that night provoked this man's thoughts, and because of the nights events, this man decided to follow Jesus. He no longer saw his identity as a jail guard, but as someone who God loved. This change in identity resulted in a change in his personality: the man was full of joy.
An example of this in Grendel is in chapter 6 when Grendel decides not to eat Unferth. Grendel responded to the way Unferth nobly acted by not eating him. In this instance, Grendel's identity temporarily shifts from man-eating monster to generous giant. One way his personality changed is that he became patient and sympathetic--two traits we haven't really seen from Grendel thus far in the novel. Grendel thinks, "I waited for him to find an answer. Minutes passed. It came to me that he had quit. He glimpsed a glorious ideal, had struggled toward it and seized it and come to understand it, and was disappointed. One could sympathize" (90).
In these two examples, external forces resulted in internal change (that was also witnessed externally--"out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.") Other times, we make a conscious change to try and do something differently in regard to the way we live our lives, although it's pretty hard to change a habit or tendency about ourselves on our own. Consider that in the first few chapters of the book, Grendel couldn't stop eating humans although he seemed resistant to the idea.
In conclusion... Identity and personality go hand in hand. A change in identity and thus, personality, is usually the result of some sort of event. This trend is seen in Grendel, in other literary sources, and many of us have probably experienced it in our lives.
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Post by naomiporter on Sept 1, 2013 5:34:02 GMT
I think people are able to change their identities internally as well as having external forces change them. I agree with how Haley differentiates between identity and personality. A person could change the way they act and identify themselves by the things they do. Because the two are so intertwined, I do not think it would be possible to alter one and not the other. If someone’s personality changed, that would alter the broader category of who the person is.
Grendel seems to think that his identity is determined by outside forces when he says "What will we call the Hrothgar-Wrecker when Hrothgar has been wrecked? (Gardner 91). Throughout the book, however, he changes continually. It seems he cannot make up his mind whether to act the role of the cruel monster or the misunderstood outcast. This continuous changing proves that he is capable of change, though he does not believe it. He sometimes decides out of mercy not to follow his natural impulse to kill and eat humans. On one occasion, Grendel says “I was so filled with sorrow and tenderness I could hardly have found it in my heart to snatch a pig” (Gardner 44). The mercy and compassion that Grendel demonstrated shows a different identity than that of the evil beast that both the humans and Grendel have come to know.
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Post by Marshall on Sept 2, 2013 20:39:16 GMT
The answer is going to vary drastically person to person. What I see as the deciding factor though is whether or not we believe in free will. You can quote the dictionary to define personality and identity, but they're both definitions everyone creates for him or herself. Personally, I see no reason to believe we have control over either. Even the drive to change an identity, or some facet of a personality is the product, on the most basic level, of external stimulus. No matter what decision you make, that you think you have control over, it's a product of forces over which the consciousness exerts no control.
So in regards to Grendel, he is entirely a product of circumstance. His isolation and encounters with humans and the Dragon caused him to change his motives, which formed more new motives that changed perceptions.
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