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Post by stever on Aug 6, 2013 22:50:42 GMT
Grendel often suggests that the ostensible order that exists in the universe is a mere illusion -- a misguided human construct. Here are a few quotes I found that pertain to this point of view:
"That's where the Shaper saves them. Provides an illusion of reality -- puts together all their facts with a gluey whine of connectedness. Mere tripe, believe me. Mere sleight-of-wits" (65).
"All order, I've come to understand, is theoretical, unreal -- a harmless, sensible, smiling mask men slide between the two great, dark realities, the self and the world -- two snake pits" (157).
"I observe myself observing what I observe. It startles me. 'Then I am not that which observes!' I am lack. Alack! No thread, no frailest hair between myself and the universal clutter" (29).
Discuss the significance of Grendel's stance of the existence of order in the universe. What does it reveal about other divisions and constructs, such as the difference between good and evil or the self and the world?
Also, what do you think Grendel's view about order reveals about his character? Is his view more knowledgable than the misguided (or so Grendel believes) humans around him? Or is his view a defense mechanism -- a way in which Grendel justifies his very existence?
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Post by carolinedorman on Aug 14, 2013 21:06:44 GMT
Grendel’s voice throughout the novel is fairly cynical; this quote excellently illustrates his view on order in the universe: “I understood that the world was nothing: a mechanical chaos of casual, brute enmity on which we stupidly impose our hopes and fears”(22). Grendel views the world as a “mechanical chaos”, however, he observes and relies on the order that humans have created to give his own life some meaning. His life is void of a sense of community that the humans seem to have. They create kingdoms and have banquets and are able to drink and laugh with each other. Grendel on the other hand is unable to communicate with the creatures around him. His only source of companionship, his mother, is described as a brute monster unable of intelligent communication.
It is easier for Grendel to scorn the humans and become the enemy than to attempt to develop a positive relationship. Judging by their brutality to other humans, the Danes do seem misguided. I do not think, however, that Grendel’s view on the world is more knowledgeable. It is simply easier for Grendel to detach himself and hate the humans rather than construct some sort of order and sense of belonging for himself.
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Post by sheridanf on Aug 16, 2013 3:29:41 GMT
Order is definitely a construct. Our universe is naturally unstable; it is constantly becoming more and more disorderly. Humans made up the concept of order to avoid the unending chaos of the world. So, order is a construct. But does that make it bad? Grendel sure seems to think so. In reality, order is beneficial to humanity. We need order to survive. There are over 7 billion humans on planet Earth because we took our disorderly world and added order. Those that don't accept order generally cannot live. Look at Grendel, for example. He rejects the humans' order, but as the book progresses, his mindset changes dramatically. He makes many random descriptions, he sometimes speaks in poetry, and he develops some paranoia. Toward the end of the book, Grendel says, "Something is coming, strange as spring. I am afraid. Standing on an open hill, I imagine muffled footsteps overhead" (pg. 126). Old Grendel never experienced this kind of unnecessary fear. He appears to become slightly insane due to his rejection of order, which eventually leads to his downfall.
Grendel seems to reject order because it is a human construct. This, however, is a very poor reason to reject an ideal. Sure, the "misguided" humans are ignorant, selfish, and prideful, and they tried hurting Grendel when they first met him, so if I were Grendel, I wouldn't like the humans much, either. But at least they have the ability to leave peacefully. Grendel's rejection of order simply because it was created by humans demonstrates that actually, he himself is misguided- and more like the humans than he would admit.
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Post by samwerner on Aug 20, 2013 0:21:10 GMT
After reading, I think it seems clear that the way Grendel criticizes human interaction is simply a defense mechanism as he struggles to find reason for his existence. In some ways, however, Grendel does seem more knowledgable simply because he's able to analyze the way Hrothgar's people act and reflect on the results of those actions. The humans are really portrayed in a demeaning manner through Grendel's eyes, which is what makes Beowulf stand out so much when he appears in the plot. Regardless, Grendel is searching desperately for some hint of meaning in his existence and has to demean the humans in order to build himself up as an important character in the society he tries to destroy.
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Post by avinash on Aug 22, 2013 20:51:36 GMT
Order is an illusion to Grendel because he feels invincible. He feels that order isn’t pertinent to his existence. Grendel also has this idea that the world revolves around him in a way. He feels that his actions dictate the actions of others around him. For example, Grendel feels that he played an integral role in Hrothgar gaining his power and large kingdom. Grendel says (speaking about Hrothgar), “I made him what he is. Have I not a right to test my own creation?” (123). The only real exception to this aspect of Grendel is his relationship with the Shapers and later with Wealtheow. Grendel looks at them in awe. When it comes to the Shapers, Grendel becomes engrossed in their stories and takes them to be true. "The harp turned solemn. He told of an ancient world feud between two brothers which split all the world between darkness and light. And I, Grendel, was in the dark side, he said in effect. The terrible race God cursed. I believed him." There are very few things that impress Grendel, but the Shapers' stories seem to be able to penetrate through his critical mind. The dragon, though, tries to disprove this notion. “That’s where the Shaper saves them. Provides an illusion of reality--puts together all their facts with a gluey whine of connectedness. Mere tripe, believe me” (65). The dragon tells Grendel that the Shapers’ stories are tripe, or rubbish. To me, the dragon, as an omniscient being, embodies “order” in Grendel. That is why after Grendel talks with the dragon he himself feels invincible. Grendel feels as though he controls “order.”
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Post by keelycorrigan on Aug 31, 2013 6:31:42 GMT
Though you make a convincing argument, I cannot help myself from trying to prove the opposite. Grendel does know order—it as foreign an idea to him as many readers might think. Order manifests itself in Grendel’s life as monotony. Grendel’s order is, before his contact with the human beings begins to spiral away from Grendel’s control, which is a day built on the same activities: attempt to communicate with but eventually just develop a complicated and mixed feeling of resentment for his mother, hunt, eat, explore the forest. Change the order of activities, perhaps; but, each of his days before he gets mixed up with the humans is the same combination of ingredients. While a cook or a chemist would probably disagree with me on this point, that is, in essence, an ordered monotonous day. Even in the reader’s introduction to Grendel, the overwhelming monotony and disappointment is evident. Gardener writes, “Owls cross my path as silently as raiding ships, and at the sound of my foot, lean wolves rise, glance at me awkwardly, and, neat of step lizards, sneak way. I used to take pride in that—the caution of owls when my shape looms in, the alarm I stir in these giant northern wolves. I was younger then. Still playing cat and mouse with the universe,” (10). Grendel has become so jaded to his environment because of the overwhelming order/monotony of his life that he can no longer “take pride” in the effect he has on a creature—which is his most distinctive and exciting aspect.
Grendel’s relationship to the humans that he stalks, spies, and preys on relights the fire of the “cat and mouse” chase for him. The human world, while opening him up to identity crisis after crisis and much confusion, expanded his knowledge of the world. The monotony still haunts him, as he will never fully be able to escape his place in the forest because of his monstrous shape. But, Grendel knows order. He just simply does not know the human exaggeration of natural order. This, this exaggeration built with hierarchies, minute to minute schedules, and intricate plans is the construct-- not “order” itself. Even as he is fighting for his life in his final, epic battle with Beowulf, Grendel knows of that the universe has its orders and its truths—for his very being depends upon it. He is receding into hallucinations from the neuro-degeneration inflicted by a wound in battle, yet he reminds himself of order. Gardener writes, “The world is what it is and always was. That’s our hope, our chance. Yet, even in times of catastrophe we people it with tricks. Grendel, Grendel, hold fast to what is true!” (169). What Grendel calls “people-ing” (I suppose?) is the exaggeration of and hyper-order that humans often use. He realizes that the natural order and laws of the world are not as the humans have exaggerated them to be. This is truly powerful because in order for him to recognize the hyper-saturation of structure, he must understand the true and natural manifestation of it.
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